Can I pick up birth certificate (estratto) while visiting the Comune?

[lvelt]

Thanks,

Non Visa question: Americans traveling to Italy only have 90 days in a 180 day period without a Visa? Reason for this question is if he takes all documents to Italy to get citizenship and it takes longer than 90 days this may become a problem. Is there a visa from the Philly consulate that he could get to avoid this?


Thanks again,

[jennabet]

Yes, it can become a problem and this is why when my companion wanted to return to Italy with me (a recognized citizen and Italian resident since 2001) and have my commune handle his documents for jure sanguinis, the San Francisco Consulate advised him that if my commune could not get the process done within 90 days, he would have to leave Italy even if he was staying in Italy with me. However, knowing that we were both interested in returning to reside in Italy as soon as possible, the consulate gave him an appointment within a very reasonable time frame and he was able to travel to Italy with his Italian passport. Once he got here, it was a piece of cake for him to obtain residence in my commune.

[lvelt]

Now what??

State of PA has no record of my grandmother. They gave me her death certificate with all the correct information. They also gave me a no record birth certificate. On my fathers birth certificate it has the wrong birth places for his parents. Plus his dad's first name was shorted to Sam from Salvatore.

State said no way can a birth certificate be altered after the person has passed. The church's records were destroyed in a fire.

What the best way to move forward?

Thanks again!

[jennabet]

I did the same thing but had my son pick them up while he was passing through. I now have the 3 birth certificates and a marriage license that I needed from Italy all stamped and signed.

My issue is that none of the documents show any of the parents on the birth certificates. I received these from the Comune. Does anyone know if this will be okay or not?

Thanks, for any advice.

Question for you. Are the above ancestors your grand-parents or great-grandparents?

[lvelt]

Sorry, i was mistaken about the names. They were all on the birth certificates.

[msabattini]

PS... Stupid "1948" law.
My GGM was from Maglione, near Turin. I could just try to get her birth certificate and use her as my ascendant instead of GGF, if it weren't for that.

[msabattini]

(Oops... This was supposed to show first. I don't know what happened. It apparently went piff after I hit send.)
UPDATE FROM OP: I just visited Zocca, and had an interesting exchange with the Anagrafe, Mr. Marchetti, who is also the local historian. He even helped me locate my family's ancestral home out in the country. Unfortunately, he could not find a record for my GGF, Alfredo Sabattini (born Dec 5 1872). He advises that many/most of the records were inadvertently destroyed after the war when certain people were trying to erase their connection to the Communist party out of fear of reprisal. (I think I have that right.) But my question is, if someone still living needed their birth certificate - say for a passport or something - but it had been destroyed, what are they supposed to do? Too bad? Tough luck? I asked if I could provide the US immigration, naturalization, marriage, military, and death documents that show Zocca, Dec 5 1872, and if they could be used as the basis for reissuing an Italian birth certificate. ....Nope.
If he wasn't so helpful, I might think I was being given the bureaucratic runaround, but sadly this appears to be the end of the road. I'm so disappointed.

[suanj]

Hi, however the second copy of civil records was sent to provincial court and after many decades to provincial State's Archive, and here is the second copy: http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0
but no one Alfredo Sabattini was born on 5 dic 1872 as a well in all December 1872...
also: when for some reason a Birth record was destroyed by bombing or fire or other.. it was and it is possible to resolve the problem by other ways... especially by baptism certificate...
best regards,
suanj

[jennabet]

But my question is, if someone still living needed their birth certificate - say for a passport or something - but it had been destroyed, what are they supposed to do? Too bad? Tough luck? I asked if I could provide the US immigration, naturalization, marriage, military, and death documents that show Zocca, Dec 5 1872, and if they could be used as the basis for reissuing an Italian birth certificate. ....Nope.

A person who was born in Italy and always remained a long term resident would have other documents to prove the right to obtain an Italian passport, such as Carta d'Identita, Health Card, Voting Card. All of those documents list citizenship, in this case, Italian. Also as long as his family didn't leave Italy, he, his parents, his grand-parents, etc. would have been known to the people of the town and recognized by Comune officials, who would then provide additional information to help this person with the lost birth certificate get a passport.

[suanj]

Hi, if this record below is abt your right ancestor:


Alfred Sabattini

United States World War I Draft Registration Cards

Name Alfred Sabattini
Event Type Draft Registration
Event Date 1917-1918
Event Place Butler County no 3, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender Male
Nationality Italy
Birth Date 05 Dec 1872
Birthplace , , Italy
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1968530
well, in this case, if I am no wrong, this other record is abt his arrival in USA:
First Name : Alfredo
Last Name : Sabattini
Nationality : Italy, Italian
Date of Arrival : February 14th, 1913
Age at Arrival : 40y
Gender : Male
Marital Status : Single
Ship of Travel : Philadelphia
Port of Departure : Cherbourg, France
Manifest Line Number : 0002

http://www.libertyellisfoundation.org/p ... 5pZmVzdCI7
well his last residence was Zocca (Modena province) but his birthplace ( second page of ship's manifest) was Borgo Panigale ( Bologna province)
and here the Birth act:
Alfredo Sabatini (1 t) born on 3 Dec. 1872 #126 in Borgo Panigale, son of Vincenzo Sabatini 36 old ( son of livving Angelo) blacksmith, and son of Ester Stefani (daughter of late Vincenzo) 30 old. ( note: the given names was Alfredo Pio Maria SABATINI, but just Alfredo on the documents)

pag 1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1947797
pag 2 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1947797

When the family moved in Zocca, I don't know, but the distance between these 2 places is abt of 45 Km..
hoping helpful,
suanj

[jennabet]

Fabulous info suanj. I'm sure the OP will be happy with that. Actually, I'm surprised the anagrafe and local historian in Zocca didn't send him straight away to Borgo Panigale.

When I went in person for my grand-father's birth certificate, the anagrafe in Isola Gran Sasso looked through his books and couldn't find anything but after asking me some additional questions about the family knew that my clan was from actually from Castelli, about ten kilometers away, and he sent me there.

It's probably a good idea to not only give the name of the parents but also the names of any siblings to help identify the family. In other words you should know as much about your family as possible before you go on a search in Italy of ancestral records.

[suanj]

It's probably a good idea to not only give the name of the parents but also the names of any siblings to help identify the family. In other words you should know as much about your family as possible before you go on a search in Italy of ancestral records.

Hi,
Jennabet I agree completely!
suanj

[msabattini]

YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh man, suanj you saved the day! I had pretty much given up. Funny thing is, I did provide the Anagrafe in Zocca with the names of Alfredo's parents, but I can understand if he couldn't make a connection with a record 45km away. I'm 3 generations removed from anyone in Italy and all my living relatives either had no interest in their ancestry, or have very poor memories, so that's pretty much all the info I had. Crazy thing is, I admit I saw Borgo Panigale on the manifest, but I couldn't make out the writing, and since everything else I have shows Zocca as the birthplace, I thought whoever wrote the entry in the ship manifest made a mistake or something, and I gave it no more attention. That'll teach me!

So here's the million dollar question: It's 5pm Friday here in La Spezia. I fly home from Milan on Thursday. I would LOVE to have a document in hand before I leave, but logistics is looking like I can't make it back it to Bologna. Any ideas?
If I have to do this from the US, what do you think is the best option for response?
Email?
Mail the request form?
Hire someone from myitalianfamily.com?
Knowing that the record exists and even being able to provide a reference (thanks to suanj!), I think a simple written request is all it should take, but I hate not knowing if my request is in queue or just being ignored. For example, both the Anagrafe and Sindaco of small-town Zocca completely ignored all written inquiries prior to my visit. But once I arrived at our accommodations in Zocca - which was owned by a friend of the Anagrafe, and who called on my behalf - only then did doors begin to open.

[msabattini]

Now that hope is alive, three other questions, if I may:

1) The birth record shows my GGF's last name spelled Sabatini, whereas every US document related to him shows it spelled Sabattini - even things in his own handwriting. Why is that?
...And so all the documents for my GF, F, and me are all Sabattini.
Will that be a problem for the Consulate?
If so, how would I even rectify that?

2) My GM was previously married and divorced. It says so on her marriage license to my GF. Will the Consulate need a translated copy of the divorce decree if she is not part of my chain of Italians?

3) I live in PA. The requirements for the Philly consulate indicate I do not need birth certificates for those not in my chain of Italians, e.g, GGM, GM, M. Every other consulate seems to require them. I wasn't planning on getting them (especially after the hassle of getting just ONE Italian document), but I just want to make sure I don't get burned. Any experience with that in Philly?

[suanj]

abt the Birth certificcate helpful for dual citizenship, you can send a request here URPBorgoPanigale@comune.bologna.it
email subject: Estratto Atto di nascita-Modello Plurilingue
the txt must be in italian Language and please to sppecify that you need to purpose italian citizenship request by ius sanguinis ( blood right)
you must attach a picture of your ID card or passport or similar
don't miss to write your full address ( also the country; you have no idea how many people missing to write the own country)
and after 30 or 40 day or more you will receive to your address.. you cannot receive in real time at request, because is a historical record ....
abt Sabatini Sabattini no problem for you.. maybe in other italian documents his surname spelling was Sabattini... however no problem for you because a double T is no a problem...
abt the divorce, is no important because he don't was married in Italy... and never transcribed his marriages in Italy, as you can see on the Birth act no one marriage note....
abt your other inquiries please to contact the Italian Consulate and don't worry... all will be ok, just to work on....

best regards,
suanj