French translation help

[mjclayton1]

Hello, "Off-Topic" Forum!

I'm taking Erudita74's advice and posting these French (Canadian) records here.

1. Record No. M4 - 1877 Marriage Record for Thomas McAndrew and Kesia Catherine Josephine Sweeney
2. Record No. S13 - I believe the death/burial record for Maria Dolan Sweeney (1902-1916?)

I would really appreciate the most detailed translation possible. As to the 1st record, I'm pretty confident that Michael McAndrew and Barbara Dougherty were Thomas' parents. Similarly, David Sweeney and Maria Dolan were Kesia's parents. As to the latter record, not sure about the James (D....?) and Frances (Larocque?) reference, but if these were Maria's parents that would be a nice revelation for me.

Any other details, big or small, e.g., ages, dates, etc., could prove extremely helpful.

Thanks.
Mark

[erudita74]

The top record you posted is the death record of Maria Dolan Sweeney.

It is dated Oct 1, 1915.
We, the undersigned priests of this parish, with this parish act, indicate that we have buried in the cemetery of this parish the body of Maria Dolan Sweeney, dead at the age of 98. James and Francis (not sure about their surnames since I'm not familiar with the French ones) signed the act, along with the priests. The last two words of the document mean "reading complete." The act was probably read aloud.

As to the marriage record, you're missing part of the record, as it continued on the next page.

I read the date as Nov 20, 1878 (not 1877). Thomas was of this parish and was the adult son of Michael McAndrew and Barbara Doherty of this parish. The bride was from Montreal. She also was of adult age. Her parents were David Sweeney and Maria Dolan, as you stated. They were from a parish by the name of St Philip. In parenthesis, it appears that the parish was also under another name (possibly St Sebastian, but I'm not sure). The rest indicates that the banns of marriage were made, and that there were no impediments that resulted from them.

Erudita

[mjclayton1]

Hi, Erudita-

Thank you so much for this. You bring many "gifts" to the table here at this forum (in the broadest sense of that term)...

Apologies for not posting the second page. I've done that here. Can you please further your translation of the McAndrew-Sweeney Marriage Record?

To backtrack and also to give you just a touch of "familial" context here, Thomas and Kesia had a daughter (among other children), Maria Ellen McAndrew, who was my maternal great-grandmother. That makes Kesia and Thomas my 2x greats and Michael, Barbara, David and Maria (Dolan) my 3x greats...

Simple as these records seem, you've nonetheless provided some fascinating details, include the heretofore unknown birth date for Maria Dolan Sweeney (ca. 1817). I also appreciated the interesting detail about the "reading aloud" possibility. Perhaps in very small communities this was a tradition (if not an outright requirement)? Just a random speculation on my part here...

I have at least one more French language record that I've attached. It's the Marriage Record for Michael and Barbara. Could I (please) ask you to display your superb language talents at least one more time here? This one looks quite tantalizing and stands to be extraordinarily revealing...

Thanks again...

Mark

[erudita74]

The marriage for Michael and Barbara-just so know, I'm struggling with some of the French surnames, so you will probably have to fill those in, since I assume you are familiar with them.

Their marriage record is dated Aug 3, 1840. Michael was of this parish and the adult son of Antoine (Antony or Anthony) McAndrew of County Mayo in Ireland and Sally Davitt of this parish.

The bride was of Grenville and the adult daughter of Martin Dougherty and deceased Barbara Heraghtez( sp???) of Grenville.

The marriage took place in the presence of the following individuals-
John McAndrew- a servant of the groom
Thomas and Martin McAndrew -brothers of the groom
James Cardine (spelling ???)
Phelan Dougherty

The second page of the other record-only the two witnesses would be of interest. The first was Thomas; once, again I'm not sure of his surname-maybe Rodgers; the other one was Brigid McAndrew.

[mjclayton1]

Erudita- thanks a million. This is just tremendous. It's late and I need some time to process, but I can't wait to sit and try and digest this all more carefully. You are truly wonderful!

Mark

[erudita74]

You're very welcome, Mark. BTW, Michael's father Antoine in Ireland was deceased at the time of his marriage. I accidentally omitted that info when I typed it yesterday.
Erudita

[mjclayton1]

I wouldn't have known that had you not clarified here, Erudita, so thanks very much for adding that. I may have a few more French records in the not-so-distant future. Just need to get my hands on them...

Mark

[erudita74]

Hi Mark
I'm glad you saw the added info. Anyway, just post other records when you locate them.
Happy to help you.
Erudita

[mjclayton1]

Hi, Erudita-

Thanks very much for the offer of "repeat business." I've attached another record here.

Not to step on your toes here (I want let you "do your thing"), but it appears as if there's reference to Thomas McAndrews and a _______ Sweeney de Harrington? My great-grandmother, Maria Ellen McAndrew, had a brother named Dominque J McAndrew (1882-1965), who married a woman named Bertha Alice ______ (1888-1973), so I was wondering if this was perhaps their marriage record, etc. I do have my doubts here...

Is also interesting in that it appears to have some sort of special parish record alongside it. Anyway, please don't spend too much time on it if it's blatantly clear that the names on the record(s) aren't associated clearly with my aforementioned relatives.

Thanks much...

Mark

[liviomoreno]

My 2 cents

On the left side M7 (no date on the page) marriage of
Groom: Dominique McAndrew son of Thomas MacAndrew and of Mary Sweney from Harrington
Bride: Alice Mc Andrew daughter (underage) of Martou(?) also from Harrington

On the right side there is the papal dispensation to allow the marriage of Dominique McAndrew and Alicia McAndrew who where second degree relatives.

[erudita74]

Mark
Martou seems to be rare as a French first name and more common as a surname. Both fathers were farmers (cultivateur is the French word in the document). Livio is correct about the document on the right side being a dispensation for them to marry, as they were relatives in the second degree in the collateral bloodline. This means they were descended from a common ancestor, but in different branches of the family. The restriction had been up to, and including, 4th degree, not only to avoid incest and genetic issues, but also in relation to inheritance. The dispensation document is dated Aug 20, 1908, but in 1906, the other date in the document, Pope Pius X must have made a change to the canon (Church) law.
Erudita

[mjclayton1]

Hi, Erudita- Thanks very much to both you and Livio for the kind translation(s) offered here. Also, for that additional color (re: dispensation). Without sounding too harsh and/or judgmental, I suppose that this is the "seamier" side of genealogical research. Still, it's an unavoidable historical truth that smaller, "geographically-challenged" communities have had far fewer opportunities for their residents to marry more traditionally (at "arms length," if you will). I do realize that human history is replete with these such unions, including, of course, in Italy. It is what it is...

If you would be so kind, I have another record for you here (S2). Much simpler than the last request: a Death/Burial Record for Barbara Doherty. I see the name Michael McAndrew ("spouse of") and also Thomas McAndrew referenced therein (also one Michael Rogers), so this record appears very promising.

Thank you again so much for helping me "advance the cause" for my family ancestry here...

Mark

[EDIT TO ADD: I think the record is dated 5 Mar 1886. Also, Barbara's death was 3 Mar 1886. Additionally, the record seems to mention the "cemetery of this place," and the "body of Barbara Doherty, spouse of Michael McAndrew...". But does it indicate whether Michael was alive at the time of her death? I doubt it, but...

Also, it appears that Michael Rogers was a priest, but even if true, I suppose it would be a surprise to me if Thomas McAndrew was also a priest. Seem like it referenced a declaration by them here...

Anyway, if you could correct me and/or fill in the appropriate blanks here that would be truly awesome...]

[erudita74]

Mark
Michael Mc Andrew was still alive when she died. You have the dates correct. March 5, 1886 and she died on the 3rd at the age of 66. If he had predeceased her, she would have been a widow at the time of her death and you would have seen the word "veuve" instead of the word epouse (there should be an acute accent over the e)-which is the word for spouse-after her name. The word "veuf" for widower appears in the death record S3 on the next page for Thomas Matthews, as he was a widower. Veuve would be the feminine of this word and mean widow.

Also there were two witnesses present at the reading of the act. Michael Rogers and Thomas McAndrews. Michael Rogers was not a priest. You are misreading the word before his name. They were present at the reading, but did not know how to sign (they were illiterate), so their signatures are not there. The record ends with the phrase "reading complete."

As to the dispensation due to the close proximity in the bloodline, even in some villages in Italy where the population was extremely small, and relatives had no choice but to marry other relatives who were related in closer than the 4th degree, dispensations were issued for them to marry. I guess from your comment, the same was true in some towns in Canada.

Erudita

[mjclayton1]

Hi, Erudita-

Thanks for the really good tip on the widow/"veuve"/"veuf" reference. Or, in this case here, the lack thereof. Is just like vedovo/a references in the Italian records. I'm glad to now have that nice tidbit filed away for future reference...

Barbara being 66 years old at her death is more or less the exact number that I was looking for (well, based on a purported 1821 Year of Birth for Barbara, maybe 65, but close enough). Also, good to know that Michael Rogers wasn't a priest (nor Thomas McAndrew, for that matter), too. I'm still just sort of feeling my way around Thomas McAndrew's sibling relationships at the beginning of the 19th Century, but indications are that he had a sister named Margaret. She (seemingly) married a gent named John Rogers, so this Michael Rogers showing up on this particular record as a witness really starts to make a little more sense (don't worry, I'm not saying this is "conclusive" evidence at all - rather, just a tad more "supporting" evidence)...

More good intel from you on the Italian dispositions back in the day. I've been aware that there are a few general reasons why a person would/could object to a proposed Italian marriage, but, truth be told, I've never had reason to inspect one of those records (meaning as far as the Italian lines that I've been looking at). Maybe I've been missing something along the way...

Anyway, this has been the first "record exposure" as to the "collateral" relative marriages in Canada that I've come across thus far. No doubt that your knowledge far exceeds mine on this subject - even given both our limited exposure. I can tell you that Grenville, Argenteuil, Lauentides, Quebec was, likely, very difficult living 150+ years ago... as it still (likely) is today. Hilly terrain. Harsh temps. Not much there to live off off. The population was 900 inhabitants back in the early 1860's. Today? Barely 1,500. In that regard, I'm thinking that it's probably not too unlike some of the more isolated hamlets/frazioni in Italy, no?

Anyway, it's been really my pleasure to "meet" you here. I'm very grateful for your ongoing assistance. There may yet be more requests to come, but just know that in a few short days you've graciously helped propel my family search forward in what I consider a very meaningful way...

Best,
Mark

[erudita74]

Mark
It’s been my pleasure to help you as well. I so infrequently get to work with records in French and have really enjoyed the opportunity to brush up on my knowledge of the language. I also have to tell you how much your kind expression of gratitude means to me. This website, despite the fact that it lacks a header to the effect, is manned by volunteers. We give freely of our time and often neglect our own research in order to do so. Yet there are those who post on the forum for help who never even say “thank you,” when help is given to them. Some even get very demanding when help is not given to them immediately. Possibly it’s because they haven’t attempted to do the research themselves and really have no clue as to how difficult and time consuming it can be. At any rate, there is no excuse for not saying “thank you.” So your comments are very meaningful to me and very much appreciated.

If you post more records in the future, and I’m off traveling with my husband, be assured that there are others like Livio who have a knowledge of French and will help you with your records. Hopefully though I’ll be around, when you come back for further assistance.

About the marriage dispensations-I actually started doing research on the subject back in the 1990s when I found a dispensation from Rome in a marriage package for the second marriage of the father of my great grandfather’s second wife. At the time, I thought the dispensation was given because his second marriage was only 7 months after the death of the first wife. I discovered, however, that the dispensation was needed because a kinship relationship had been established between him and his sister-in-law at the time of his first marriage. Normally we don’t think about such relationships being established with in-laws, but this was, indeed, the case. So after his wife died, and before he married her sister, he needed a dispensation from Rome, in order to do so.

Anyway, good luck with your further research. I truly hope you find the connections for which you are searching.

Until we "meet" again.
Erudita