Locating citizenship of my grandfather, born in Egypt

[mler]

No need to clarify, suanj. It was very clear that you were simply stating the importance of confirming the family's recollection of Italian citizenship. It makes sense to start at that point.

Beyond that, it seems that there are multiple sources to research. As you note, Isreali records of emigres may contain vital information, and apparently there are several Jewish genealogical sites that may be helpful.

It's interesting that the majority of Jewish Italian emigres to Egypt came from southern Italy. It may explain the return to Napoli for medical care, and also provides a starting point for research.

You also mention something that is critical. Jewish emigres to Israel were accepted as Israeli nationals under the "Law of Return." It needs to be determined if this required naturalization because, of course, that would have ended the Italian citizenship.

I tend to think, suanj (and perhaps you can confirm if this is true) that simply renouncing foreign citizenship in Israel would not cause Italian citizenship to be lost since renunciation must have been made to an Italian official. I tend to think that naturalization was not necessary for Jews settling in Isreal, but this also needs to be confirmed.

[suanj]

Hi mier,
I know that the 90 % of italians naturalized in foreign country don't informed or renounced to italian citizenship also in Italy... Descendants of Italian emigrants must submit a certificate to the Italian Consulate where they apply and this certificate is the certificate of naturalization or no naturalization of italian ancestor.. if naturalized,by naturalization date the descendant as a well the Italian Consulate can know if the descentant is elegible for dual citizenship.
in Amarasit case,
I have already said what I think and regarding its possible eligibility we can not make a comparison with descent descendants emigrated, for example in the US. Because we know what the US required for naturalization of an Italian subject, that is, they required the renunciation of Italian citizenship .
But regarding Israel, being a newborn state, which was not before, and according to the law of return, also asked for the renunciation of the previous nationality of returned people?
I think yes, because it is a form of protection for the state, security for the state. But it's just my opinion.

I think every state is asking this to who wish to naturalize.

Therefore, it would be necessary to ascertain whether they were truly Italian citizens, and they became Israeli nationals, they had to give up, or not give up Italian citizenship? Then, when these two basic points have been clarified, you can search and respond in detail.
All the best,
suanj

[mler]

Hi suanj,

Thank you for your explanation. I think that this case is not very straightforward.

From what I've read, there are three primary ways to lose Italian citizenship.

1. Taking arms against Italy (This I never really understood because many of our ancestors fought against Italy in either WW I or WW II.) For some reason, this does not seem to be an issue in applying for citizenship recognition.

2. Renunciation, but renunciation of Italian citizenship must be made before an Italian official either at the comune or at the consulate. Thus, a man who completed a Declaration of Intent in the US in which he renounced citizenship, was not considered by Italy to have renounced because the renunciation was not made to an Italian authority. Renunciation in this manner was/is quite rare.

3. Naturalization (before 1992). It is this act that caused loss of citizenship for most. Even though the applicant signed a declaration much earlier renouncing his citizenship, he didn't actually lose his citizenship until he actually naturalized. In other words, the written renunciation was only important to the US; the naturalization was important to Italy.

In the Law of Return, Jews could obtain Israeli citizenship quite easily. I believe they would have had to renounce their former citizenship, but that renunciation would not be made to an Italian authority and, thus (like the declaration of intent) would not have caused the loss of citizenship.

The real question then is this: Does the act of becoming an Israeli national, even if that act is automatic and does NOT require naturalization, cause the loss of Italian citizenship? This is complicated because, as you note, Israel was a new country.

I don't know the answer to this.

[mler]

This was posted on the website of the Italian Consulate in Tel Aviv. I think it may be positive news, but if I'm reading this wrong, please let me know.

a) Si sottolinea che NON può essere riconosciuta la cittadinanza italiana al richiedente il cui dante causa avo italiano si sia naturalizzato cittadino straniero, fatta eccezione di alcuni acquisti di cittadinanza israeliana, o abbia rinunciato alla cittadinanza italiana prima della nascita del richiedente. Si rammenta inoltre che la cittadinanza italiana per derivazione materna solo per individui nati DOPO il 1/1/1948 non può essere richiesta presso le Sedi consolare all’estero , ma solo tramite sentenza giudiziaria in Italia.

[jennabet]

I agree, thoroughly, Suanj that Israel would have the details of every Italian citizen who ever emigrated to Israel, particularly during the period of 1948, 1949. With most Italian Jews having resided and still residing in Sicily and Calabria (Nicastro in the province of Catanzaro, a place we know well), Amarsarit might start in that commune for more information. However, if I know the Italian people the way I think I know them, I do find it odd that an Italian family going to live in Israel forever, would not also visit their family in Italy before leaving. Amarsarit says nothing about this. He only says that they went to Naples for medical care.

[mler]

Who knows; perhaps they did visit relatives while they were there. Or perhaps all the close relatives emigrated together. Or perhaps they were feuding with their relatives .

Clearly amarsarit is not in possession of all the details. If he/she were, there would be no question about the comune of origin. That's what the research will hopefully bring to light. Catanzaro may well be a good place to start on the Italian end. There are a lot of suggestions here, and perhaps they will be helpful.

[suanj]

yes mier, but the critical point is in the words" alcuni acquisti di cittadinanza" so no all... and however all italian consulates in foreign countries wishing the foreign certificates of no naturalization, and for exemple just some italian Consulate in some state of USA wish the "certificato di cittadinanza italiana", it means the ancestor don't lost the italian citizenship in Italy... some clerk never knew abt this certificate and I had hard time to explain what was .. at least lacking any register abt this matter, the clerks made a certificate stating that don't result by documents in this Commune that XY renounced to italian citizenship " really they don't have any folder, register or document abt this matter, almost abt the massive emigration... maybe in more recent time... who know.... personally I believe that abt the massive emigration time, are no documents in the Commune abt the renounce in Italy of some emigrant..

I never see someone, never... maybe this point pertaining the emigration after WWII.... but in the past time....who went back in italy to renounce the italian citizenship...? no one..
I had a aunt who lived in Chicaho for 40 years, naturalized US Citizen, and when widow and alone, went back in Italy. She was US Citizen, went back in Italy with US passport, and remained in Italy until the death as a italian citizen because she never renounced in Italy.. so for the poster we given the better advices possible, but before of anything better to know if they was really italians.

suanj

[mler]

Many thanks, suanj.

Yes, I noticed that (alcuni) I wish it were more specific.

[jennabet]

Once again, Suanj, I agree thoroughly with you. During the mass exit of Italians to the USA, not only did they not return to Italy to announce they had been naturalized, they also didn't bother to inform the consulates in the USA so of course, Italy would not be in possession of any documents to that effect. I have four grand-parents all born in Abruzzo who never again set foot in this land after they left it in 1910. It took my own action nearly 100 years later in becoming recognized as an Italian citizen by blood that let the consulate know that at least one of my grand-fathers had been naturalized and was no longer an Italian citizen.

[jennabet]

I have already said what I think and regarding its possible eligibility we can not make a comparison with descent descendants emigrated, for example in the US. Because we know what the US required for naturalization of an Italian subject, that is, they required the renunciation of Italian citizenship .
But regarding Israel, being a newborn state, which was not before, and according to the law of return, also asked for the renunciation of the previous nationality of returned people?
I think yes, because it is a form of protection for the state, security for the state. But it's just my opinion.

And your opinion makes perfect sense. Again, I agree with you.

[amarsarit]

Hello everyone!

Here are my responses to your questions:

1. I know for sure the family had Italian passports because my grandfather's sister is still alive, and remembers having an Italian passport - and so did the rest of her siblings and parents. When Jews came to Israel in those years, the Jewish agency took their original passports from them after they received their Israeli citizenship. That's why they don't have their passports. I checked with the Jewish agency and they couldn't find their Italian passports.

2. My grandfather's name was Albert ANANI, and he was indeed Jewish. His sister couldn't recollect an Italian ancestry and is convinced that the family has been in Egypt for generations. However, I don't take it as 100% fact because she may not know or never asked and also, generations of Egyptian roots doesn't rule out Italian roots.
The name Anani could refer to the town Anagni or the surname ANANIA.

3. Jews who came then to Israel (and still do) get an automatic Israeli citizenship without naturalization. In my understanding, this process wouldn't cancel his Italian citizenship. This is something I also read here on other threads.

Thank you,
Sarit (I'm a SHE )

[amarsarit]

Thank you, mmogno, that was really interesting.

BTW, amarsarit, I believe that Egypt was a jus soli country. That would mean that even if your grandfather was an Italian citizen, he may have acquired Egyptian citizenship by being born in that country. Because it was automatic citizenship, however, it would not have affected his Italian citizenship.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. In my understanding and according to what I read and know about my family, they never had an Egyptian citizenship (it was rare for Jews to be recognized as Egyptian by citizenship at the time. Many Jews applied and received citizenships from consulates of European countries based on ancestry.

[jennabet]

If your grand-father's sister is still alive and remembers having an Italian passport, I would think she might and should also remember why the family had Italian passports and how the Italian connection is established. For example who are the Italian relatives, where do they live in Italy, etc. Why didn't they visit those people before they left for Israel? But then again, if they have been in Egypt for generations, her not knowing of any connection to Italy would be understandable.

There is a Anani, Reine in Rome and another Anani, Adil in Grottamare. I would think these are not Italian names. In addition, the sur names Anagni and Anania do exist in Italy and some are located in Catanzaro in Calabria, a place I have already mentioned. But if these people in Calabria were originally Jews when they came to Italy from Spain after the inquisition, it was more than 500 years ago and they have been living as and practicing Catholocism ever since. In addition, I'm not sure the communes have records that go back that far. Therefore, it's going to be difficult to make a connection to Italy because the only proof you have is supposedly an Italian passport that at this time is non-existent and apparently heresay. In fact, it might be easier at this point for you to make a connection for your family with the country of Spain instead of Italy. By the way, there are many Arabs from all over the Middle East with Italian sounding names who have never had any connection to Italy.

[mler]

Italy only issues passports to Italian citizens, so if your family had passports, they were citizens at that time no matter where the family originated. Many Italians discover that their families originated elsewhere (Greece, Albania, etc.). And since Italy was well established as a country in 1929, your aunt's recollection of passports during that period is a good indication that you should continue your search. However, since Israel took those passports, you no longer have proof of citizenship. Recollection is not enough, and to go further, you will need proof.

Since you don't know where in Italy your ancestors were born, you cannot obtain the documents you will need. You may want to try some of the localities mentioned by jennebet, but there are obviously no guarantees that a random search will yield results.

Your best bet is to search family records in Israel. It is my understanding that Israel kept detailed records of those who obtained citizenship through the Law of Return. These records will certainly note the place from which your ancestors emigrated, but what you really need is a place of birth, which these records may also contain. If you are able to locate these records, you can then trace your family and determine whether or not Italian citizenship existed and was retained.

Your best bet is within Israel and in the many Jewish genealogy sites.

Best of luck.

(I am sending you a PM with additional information.)

[arturo.c]

You could check the website http://www.aideinternational.it which, although not updated since 2009, has some interesting resources to explore.