Assistance in locating birth/marriage certificates for GGM?

[matei]

Hi all,

I've been trying in vain to find the birth and marriage certificates for my great grandmother, was hoping that some of the more experienced members in genealogy searches might be able to assist?

My GGF's name is DI PALMA ERNESTO (or De Palma), b. 07 April 1878, in Pratola Serra. He emigrated to the US in 1901 or thereabouts, and lived first in Pittsburgh and then in New Kensington/Arnold. He used the De Palma spelling in the US.

I have his birth certificate, as well as that of his first wife's, GUIDA GIUSEPPA - who died in Italy in 1911.

I'm certain that my GGF went back to Italy around 1907/08, and I think he brought his first wife back with him. He came back in 1909.

My GGM's name is MARIA DOMENICA CENTRELLA (or Domenica Maria), supposedly born on 12 December 1889, in Montemiletto. I have been in contact with the comune and they have no record of her being born there, there was a person with a similar name (and parents' names) but it is most definitely not her, as this person emigrated to the US a few years later, got married to a different person and had a family etc.

I checked in both Montemiletto and Pratola Serra for a marriage or birth certificate for my GGM and GGF, but have uncovered nothing.

In the 1913 manifest, it states that my GGM travelled under her maiden name with my GGF's daughters from a previous marriage, that her previous residence was in Montemiletto, and that she is travelling to stay with her husband, Ernesto De Palma, in Pittsburgh. I assume they were married in Italy.

To be certain they weren't married in the US, I used Ancestry.com and Familysearch to check for a marriage cert for my GGF/GGM in Pennsylvania and New York (where not only she disembarked but my GGF's former brother-in-law livevd), but there were none. It did turn up marriage licenses for my GGF/GGM's children though, but not for them.

I have nearly everything else related to my grandparents and my great-grandfather, but I just can't seem to locate my great-grandmother's birth cert or their marriage cert. It is very frustrating!

Are there any outgoing passenger lists online? I figured that might be one way to narrow down their marriage date, with my GGF's comings/goings.

I assume it was between 1911-1913, as his first wife died in 1911 and my GGM travelled to the US in 1913.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated!

thanks!

[Biff83]

Another thread on the same topic:

https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/emigration/42578

Biff

[matei]

Thanks Biff

Perhaps she wasn't certain of her year of birth? I don't know how thorough the comunes are when they carried out their searches, but Montemiletto did turn up someone (not the same person as my GGM as I mentioned) born in 1891, so I assume they looked +/- a few years.

Does anyone know what, if any, forms of identification people used when travelling back then?

I wonder if there would there be any circumstances in which someone wouldn't be registered upon birth in their commune? :-s

[matei]

Another thread on the same topic:

https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/emigration/42578

Biff

Yes - I was advised that this subject wasn't perhaps best suited to that forum

Apologies for the dual threads, I'm pretty rubbish on forum etiquette, trying to bring myself up to speed.

[suanj]

I know that this is a double topic but probably, I believe, that the no success of search, it is just because some data is no right... I say so because on 1930 census... Maria seeming born on 1883.. immigrated on 1906...

Marie De Palma
United States Census, 1930
Name:
Marie De Palma
Event Type:
Census
Event Date:
1930
Event Place:
New Kensington, Westmoreland, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender:
Female
Age:
47
Marital Status:
Married
Race:
White
Race (Original):
White
Relationship to Head of Household:
Wife
Relationship to Head of Household (Original):
Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):
1883
Birthplace:
Italy
Immigration Year:
1906
Father's Birthplace:
Italy
Mother's Birthplace:
Italy
Sheet Letter:
B
Sheet Number:
10
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
Ernesto De Palma
Head
Male
52
Italy
Marie De Palma
Wife
Female
47
Italy
Arthur De Palma
Son
Male
14
Pennsylvania
Nick De Palma
Son
Male
12
Pennsylvania
Mike De Palma
Son
Male
10
Pennsylvania
Josephine De Palma
Daughter
Female
5
Pennsylvania

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1810731
maybe searching differently we can know her birthplace...
suanj

[matei]

Interesting... thanks for turning that up. I wonder if someone else (husband?) had been filling out all her other docs, she lists her birthday as 1889, and there is a record of her coming to the US in 1913.

I'll see if I can get the helpful person from the comune to check that year.

Thanks for digging that up. I'll see if I can find a 1906 manifest with her on it.

[matei]

The commune came back straight away, no such person born in 1883.

[suanj]

Ernesto emigrate on 1900:
First Name : Ernesto
Last Name : DePalina
Nationality : Italy, Italian
Last Place of Residence : Pratolaseria
Date of Arrival : October 3rd, 1900
Age at Arrival : 22y
Gender : Male
Marital Status : Married
Ship of Travel : Ems
Port of Departure : Genoa, Italy
Manifest Line Number : 0006
and he was married, ok... then the first wife died on 1911 in Italy... you said that he went back in Italy... you think that he married again to maria Domenica Centrella in Italy or in USA? Just to understand.. because if they married in Italy probably went both in USA in same trip.. and because Arthur was born around 1916 we can think that they arrived in USA between 1911 and 1916; to find her arrival is important, to know the right age and birthplace. Instead if they married in USA we must search differently... but to find her arrival is very important, because by that we can know the her age, right age, last residence and birthplace....
suanj

[suanj]

Here the arrival on 7th Dec 1913 with daughters Carmela and Luisa De Palma... last residence Montemiletto, born in Montemiletto joining to Ernesto De Palma; left Antonio father in Montemiletto.. the age seeming 25 or 29...
FIRST NAME
Domenica
LAST NAME
Contiella
Marital Status
Married
GENDER
Female
Age at Arrival
25y
Ethnicity
N/A
Last Place of Residence
Montennletti, Italy
Year of Birth
N/A
Passenger ID
100813120134
Date of Arrival
December 7th, 1913
Ship of Travel
Stampalia
Port of Departure
Napoli
pag 1 https://libertyellisfoundation.org/show ... cGciOw==/1
pag 2 https://libertyellisfoundation.org/show ... cGciOw==/1
if really she was 25 old, the birthyear is abt 1888... so why the clerk don't find the Birth record?
suanj

[matei]

Hi - thanks again for the help, really appreciate it.

I thought that they would've been already married, in Italy, if she is joining Ernesto in the USA, but I looked in the US for a marriage cert just in case.

I tried looking for a marriage certificate for them in Pennsylvania, but nothing turned up. Same in NY... I admit my searching skills could be better... I've spent hours looking for something that other people manage to find in several minutes! There is a knack to finessing the info out of the datebases

I also contacted the communte and asked politely for them to look for someone born on the date mentioned above... no such person.

I'll ask them to look in 1888, or a range of dates.

[matei]

It appears that I've run out of luck with the commune in Montemiletto, they responded today stating that in their opinion I'd be better off hiring a specialised agency that deals with this sort of thing.

They also said it isn't unheard of for births not to have been registered at the commune in this period.

[suanj]

The civil record's clerks do not want work that nobody pays or will pay. It is not their duty to comply with the demands of non-Italian citizens. Especially with requests that go beyond the duty of their work. Searching in the civil records is not their duty. They issue civil certificates when the person needs them for legal and relevant use, like italian citizenship request.... I read very often on this forum, which for the very least thing is recommended to write to civil record's clerk... as if they had nothing else to do, and exchange an answer that is given only by courtesy, as something that is due to them.. they ask for everything and are advised to ask for everything. That's not how it works. He asked you to contact an agency, and he was right to tell you, because you have to understand that it is not their duty, and the taxes of the Italians are used to pay their salaries. They are very kind, but they respond to the maximum once, then if the person insists, they make it clear that if they want a service they have to pay those who do it. So I advise you not to clog the clerk with request... Just if you need of a Birth certificate of your ancestor, helpful for dual citizenship application, you can contact the Montemiletto clerk.. for other questions, the Avellino State's Archive is helpful, but you are no on place, so just a genealogy agency can help you, otherwise the mormon's center, and you can search by yourself https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library
This is the better way.... please to accept my advice... because I know that when a clerk reply so, means "do not bother me"..
suanj

[matei]

Hi Suanj,

Thanks for your advice - I have listened and engaged the services of someone who is in a better position to help.

I thanked the clerk at the commune for his assistance, he was very helpful and not at all dismissive of my efforts to dig up this information.

To be honest I was suprised he was that helpful in the first place

I think a got a bit further than I expected as our correspondance was in Italian, I'm lucky enough to be in a multi-lingual household.

[matei]

Hi all... just wanted to update this thread. I was fortunate to discover a relative on a geneology site, his wife put up a family tree that included some of my De Palma and Centrella relatives. I was lucky enough to get a reply from my great uncle's son, who filled me in on some more details and will send me over some pictures as well.

The weird thing is that it appears that the person with the same name as my GGM, who lived a street or so away, is my GGM's sister. Her son was my relative's godfather.

I'm not familiar with Italian customs from that period - was it common for two children to have identical names? I've heard of something similar if one child died, the next one was given the same name - but I've not come across this in Italy.

[matei]

Nevermind my last post. Need to put my glasses on and slow down. Silly mistake, my GGM's name is Domenica Maria, and her sister Maria Amorosa. Totally different names.

How embarrassing.