Marriage date?
Marriage date?
I am confused by the marriage date on the attached record. It looks like the marriage occurred on 14 Nov 1848, but was not officially reported until 20 May 1856. Is this correct? If so, is there an explanation for this in there? Or any other pertinent info? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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Re: Marriage date?
This is a totally new one for me, so I hope I don't steer your wrong.
The 1848 marriage date is for a clandestine marriage the couple had had. That is, it was a secret marriage and not undertaken in the church or in front of a civil official. Possibly their parents had disapproved of the couple marrying and had refused to consent to the couple marrying. So, through their own mutual consent, they did so anyway-possibly they did so in what we would refer to as a "common law" marriage; i.e. lived together as husband and wife without either a civil or church marriage certificate.
Clandestine marriages were common pre the mid 1500s, and the formation of the Council of Trent, which then dictated certain requirements for church marriages. So, for a clandestine or secret marriage, all you had was the mutual consent of the groom and bride. The marriage did not take place in a church, banns were not posted, consent of parents was not needed, and witnesses were not required, as when the marriage was a public one.
As to the church marriage in this document, which then took place on May 20, 1856, banns were posted on the 4th, 11th, and 18th of the month and had resulted in no legal impediments to the church marriage. The names of their parents do not appear in this record. I don't completely understand the rest of the record, so you will have to rely on someone better versed in the Latin language to help you with the rest.
Erudita
The 1848 marriage date is for a clandestine marriage the couple had had. That is, it was a secret marriage and not undertaken in the church or in front of a civil official. Possibly their parents had disapproved of the couple marrying and had refused to consent to the couple marrying. So, through their own mutual consent, they did so anyway-possibly they did so in what we would refer to as a "common law" marriage; i.e. lived together as husband and wife without either a civil or church marriage certificate.
Clandestine marriages were common pre the mid 1500s, and the formation of the Council of Trent, which then dictated certain requirements for church marriages. So, for a clandestine or secret marriage, all you had was the mutual consent of the groom and bride. The marriage did not take place in a church, banns were not posted, consent of parents was not needed, and witnesses were not required, as when the marriage was a public one.
As to the church marriage in this document, which then took place on May 20, 1856, banns were posted on the 4th, 11th, and 18th of the month and had resulted in no legal impediments to the church marriage. The names of their parents do not appear in this record. I don't completely understand the rest of the record, so you will have to rely on someone better versed in the Latin language to help you with the rest.
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Hi Erudita,
This is all very interesting! In all my research, this is the first time I've encountered this. I thought I recognized the Latin word for clandestine, but I had no idea that this practice occurred and was accepted. This explains why I have found records for the birth of three of their children between 1849 and 1956. Thank you so much!
Janet
This is all very interesting! In all my research, this is the first time I've encountered this. I thought I recognized the Latin word for clandestine, but I had no idea that this practice occurred and was accepted. This explains why I have found records for the birth of three of their children between 1849 and 1956. Thank you so much!
Janet
Re: Marriage date?
Janet
I had wondered whether the bride was already pregnant. I had previously read about couples who did have priests marry them, if the girl was already pregnant, but then in the record, it was noted that a dispensation had been gotten from the bishop, or someone higher up in the church hierarchy, to dispense with the banns, so that the couple could marry quickly and not wait for the three weeks for the banns to be announced in church. But, I have never before seen this type of marriage record and hope I haven't misled you with any info I posted in my reply. It's definitely a subject that requires a lot more research, particularly on my part.
I was just reading that, in the later part of the Middle Ages, during the 14th century, there were civil laws passed in some towns regarding civil clandestine marriage. Those civil laws insisted on parental consent to marriages and actually ran counter to the established canon (church) law on marriage by which, although the contract was to be made public, the consent of the couple alone was required and should not in any way be impeded. And there were punishments for individuals who did have a clandestine marriage or were party to one. So anyone who secretly married, or took as a wife, a woman who has a father, mother, brother, or elder relative, but without their knowledge or consent, was to fined L 100 (Liras), and more or less at the discretion of the lord, or podestra of the court.There was this same penalty for anyone who gave his or her daughter, sister, niece or cousin, or arranged to have her betrothed, whether secretly or openly, to any man who has a father or grandfather (without consent), except if he was emancipated. Any witnesses present, and the notary who drew up the contract, were also to be punished. The witnesses L 25 each, and the notary L 50.
Very interesting indeed. Actually need to track down more info on the subject but during the time period in your record.
Erudita
I had wondered whether the bride was already pregnant. I had previously read about couples who did have priests marry them, if the girl was already pregnant, but then in the record, it was noted that a dispensation had been gotten from the bishop, or someone higher up in the church hierarchy, to dispense with the banns, so that the couple could marry quickly and not wait for the three weeks for the banns to be announced in church. But, I have never before seen this type of marriage record and hope I haven't misled you with any info I posted in my reply. It's definitely a subject that requires a lot more research, particularly on my part.
I was just reading that, in the later part of the Middle Ages, during the 14th century, there were civil laws passed in some towns regarding civil clandestine marriage. Those civil laws insisted on parental consent to marriages and actually ran counter to the established canon (church) law on marriage by which, although the contract was to be made public, the consent of the couple alone was required and should not in any way be impeded. And there were punishments for individuals who did have a clandestine marriage or were party to one. So anyone who secretly married, or took as a wife, a woman who has a father, mother, brother, or elder relative, but without their knowledge or consent, was to fined L 100 (Liras), and more or less at the discretion of the lord, or podestra of the court.There was this same penalty for anyone who gave his or her daughter, sister, niece or cousin, or arranged to have her betrothed, whether secretly or openly, to any man who has a father or grandfather (without consent), except if he was emancipated. Any witnesses present, and the notary who drew up the contract, were also to be punished. The witnesses L 25 each, and the notary L 50.
Very interesting indeed. Actually need to track down more info on the subject but during the time period in your record.
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Janet
I've been reading more about clandestine marriages. Sometimes, if the girl was already pregnant, the couple was young, and did not have parental consent, the couple would seek out a priest to marry them, in a parish not their own, even possibly in another town, and he would marry them secretly. So no banns were announced in church, no witnesses were present, and he might even alter the date of the marriage to accommodate the pregnancy-so he would record the marriage as having taken place at an earlier date than he actually performed the ceremony.
Erudita
I've been reading more about clandestine marriages. Sometimes, if the girl was already pregnant, the couple was young, and did not have parental consent, the couple would seek out a priest to marry them, in a parish not their own, even possibly in another town, and he would marry them secretly. So no banns were announced in church, no witnesses were present, and he might even alter the date of the marriage to accommodate the pregnancy-so he would record the marriage as having taken place at an earlier date than he actually performed the ceremony.
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Erudita,
Hah, we’re thinking along the same lines. I too was wondering if it was a hastily arranged ceremony to accommodate a pregnancy. Their first child was born 18 Oct 1849, so about 11 months after the date of the clandestine marriage, but if the priest was willing to ‘predate’ the marriage, that could explain it. Also, at the time of this marriage, Francesco was only 20 years old (he was baptized in 1828), which would have been a little young for a man in this town to marry. I have noticed through reading many Prizzi records that most men seemed to be a little older when they married — typically at least 23-24. So this may have prompted some parental disapproval from either or both sides. Maria Carmela was 19, well within the acceptable age range for girls of the town to marry. Would that I could time-travel! In just one day in Prizzi, I could get answers to questions that would take years of research to uncover! Thanks again for the information and very interesting discussion. If you uncover any other possibilities, please let me know, and I will do the same.
Hah, we’re thinking along the same lines. I too was wondering if it was a hastily arranged ceremony to accommodate a pregnancy. Their first child was born 18 Oct 1849, so about 11 months after the date of the clandestine marriage, but if the priest was willing to ‘predate’ the marriage, that could explain it. Also, at the time of this marriage, Francesco was only 20 years old (he was baptized in 1828), which would have been a little young for a man in this town to marry. I have noticed through reading many Prizzi records that most men seemed to be a little older when they married — typically at least 23-24. So this may have prompted some parental disapproval from either or both sides. Maria Carmela was 19, well within the acceptable age range for girls of the town to marry. Would that I could time-travel! In just one day in Prizzi, I could get answers to questions that would take years of research to uncover! Thanks again for the information and very interesting discussion. If you uncover any other possibilities, please let me know, and I will do the same.
Re: Marriage date?
Janet
Glad we think alike. It's unfortunate that the date of the 1848 marriage celebration is given, but I don't see clarification in the record as to where that "secret" ceremony took place. I'm not assuming it took place in the same parish, but then you never know. Maybe this young couple was able to bribe a priest there into performing the ceremony. Anyway, a very interesting topic, which I have never before encountered in the church records, so I will continue to explore it and update you, if I find anything more concrete.
Erudita
Glad we think alike. It's unfortunate that the date of the 1848 marriage celebration is given, but I don't see clarification in the record as to where that "secret" ceremony took place. I'm not assuming it took place in the same parish, but then you never know. Maybe this young couple was able to bribe a priest there into performing the ceremony. Anyway, a very interesting topic, which I have never before encountered in the church records, so I will continue to explore it and update you, if I find anything more concrete.
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Thank you!
Re: Marriage date?
Happy to help.
Erudita
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Erudita,
Thought you might be interested: I just came across the 1881 marriage record for the daughter of Francesco Cannariato and Maria Carmela Romano and it actually mentions the clandestine marriage, along with the date of this marriage, of the bride's parents!
Thought you might be interested: I just came across the 1881 marriage record for the daughter of Francesco Cannariato and Maria Carmela Romano and it actually mentions the clandestine marriage, along with the date of this marriage, of the bride's parents!
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Re: Marriage date?
Correction: it does not include the date.
Re: Marriage date?
Janet
What is interesting about this latest record is that, even though there is no date for the parents' clandestine marriage, there is reference to a witness to that marriage. The name Decano Marino appears there, and it states that he was sent there and was reluctant. While Decano can be used as a first name, it is also an ecclesiastic title held, for example, by a Cardinal in the Catholic Church hierarchy. So, I'm understanding, that he was sent there in person, and the clandestine marriage did take place in his presence.
Erudita
What is interesting about this latest record is that, even though there is no date for the parents' clandestine marriage, there is reference to a witness to that marriage. The name Decano Marino appears there, and it states that he was sent there and was reluctant. While Decano can be used as a first name, it is also an ecclesiastic title held, for example, by a Cardinal in the Catholic Church hierarchy. So, I'm understanding, that he was sent there in person, and the clandestine marriage did take place in his presence.
Erudita
Re: Marriage date?
Erudita,
Very interesting. I have since come across another marriage announcement that includes a reference to the clandestine marriage of one set of parents, around the same time period. Maybe this was more common than we thought? I’ll have to do a bit of research to try to understand better what was happening in Prizzi during that time. Thanks for the additional information!
Janet
Very interesting. I have since come across another marriage announcement that includes a reference to the clandestine marriage of one set of parents, around the same time period. Maybe this was more common than we thought? I’ll have to do a bit of research to try to understand better what was happening in Prizzi during that time. Thanks for the additional information!
Janet
Re: Marriage date?
Maybe it was something like what is mentioned in the famous book by Alessandro Manzoni, "I Promessi Sposi", the action of which takes place in the XVII Century. At that time, a marriage was valid if both spouses pronounced in front of the priest their will to marry each other. In that case (of the book, I mean), the priest did not want to marry the spouses, as he was afraid of the vengeance of the Lord of the place, who had sent two of his scoundrels saying "questo matrimonio non s'ha da fare" ("this marriage doesn't have to take place"); he was able not to let the bride speak, so the trick did not work.
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi
Certificate requests and genealogical researches in Italy.
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Certificate requests and genealogical researches in Italy.
Translation of your (old) documents and letters.
Legal assistance in Italy for your Italian citizenship.
Re: Marriage date?
Interesting info, Pippo, thanks for sharing.
Erudita
Erudita
