Potential Ex-Italian Surname Origins

[MarcuccioV]

For Catasti and Riveli you most likely would have to visit an LDS Family History Center in person. Some records date back to the 1500s. I've found Riveli records in my grandparents' town in Sicily with variant spellings of their surname back to the 1590s, though I couldn't establish family relationships.

Same for marriage allegati unless you can find them online. I suppose you'd want to search the earliest marriage allegati. I've found baptism records for brides and grooms, and death records for parents, dating back to the 1700s in marriage allegati records of the 1820s and 1830s, for example.

Start by checking for availability on Ancestry, Family Search, and Antenati. You also can do an Internet by town search because I've seen some old property records online for selected families/towns.

I checked, nothing online that I haven't already looked at. I'd have to look into checking in person IF I can find the time to do so. Thanks for the info.

[MarcuccioV]

My local family history center is still closed due to COVID, so I guess I'll have to put this on the back burner for now.

[darkerhorse]

Bear in mind, that, due to the commonality of languages, especially Romance languages, similar surnames or the same surnames likely arose independently in different countries among different ethnic peoples.

[darkerhorse]

I also wonder whether first names might give you some clues, especially when babies were named after grandparents, other relatives, patron saints, etc.?

In my family, the first names Mauro (dark-skinned, Moorish) and Sebastiano (patron saint of hometown) were prevalent and repeated for males dating back to the 1700s.

[MarcuccioV]

I also wonder whether first names might give you some clues, especially when babies were named after grandparents, other relatives, patron saints, etc.?

In my family, the first names Mauro (dark-skinned, Moorish) and Sebastiano (patron saint of hometown) were prevalent and repeated for males dating back to the 1700s.

Patron Saint of Valmontone is Aloysius of Gonzaga. NO versions of either appear in the civil records, believe it or not.

There ARE very popular male and female first names that repeat often (including among my ancestors) in town, Luigi, Francesco, Giuseppe and Giovanni being the most prevalent. Other first names range from average popularity to one-off's.

The most common female names are Maria (and it's variants) and Rosa. Others again, moderate popularity to singles. In the case of Maria, the central parish is Santa Maria (di Assunta) Maggiore, which may account for the high concentration of Maria's (including my Gm).

There are MANY Italian/Latin first names of both genders that are either extremely rare or non-existent in town.

I'm not certain whether the one-off or rarely used first names have any relevance as to where they originated, but it's something to chew on.

A few examples: My GGm was named Modesta. My mom was named for her (she hated the diminutive "Mo" so she changed it to 'Jean' in her adult life). I'm not sure if I found any other "Modesta's" in the civil records -- if so, it may have been 1 or 2 from unrelated families.

My mom's twin brother was Luciano (again, hated being called "Lucy" so changed to 'John'). NObody with that first name in records. Closest is an uncommon surname in town of "Luciani". Maybe they are distantly related, maybe she just liked the name. Plus he & my mom were born in Detroit so she may have heard of it there.

They had 2 brothers who died in their youth (9 & 12 YO). Both named "Nello". Again, maybe 1 or 2 in all of the civil records, unrelated.

Since I'm stuck at civil records from 1871, I only can find parent's names from the death acts of their children, and these do not appear.

If I can, I may research other nearby towns or regions indicated by my DNA findings to see if some of the more unusual names have more popularity...

[darkerhorse]

I was thinking that the oldest first names might give you some clues as to prior ethnicity or country of origin, especially if they aren't typically Italian.

[darkerhorse]

You listed three family surnames.

What are the towns where your earliest ancestors with those surnames lived?

[darkerhorse]

I was thinking that the oldest first names might give you some clues as to prior ethnicity or country of origin, especially if they aren't typically Italian.

https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/italian

[darkerhorse]

https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/usage/italian

[MarcuccioV]

I was thinking that the oldest first names might give you some clues as to prior ethnicity or country of origin, especially if they aren't typically Italian.

Most of them (even as deep in the tree as I can go) are the common ones with these notable exceptions:

Female -- Margherita/Verginia (mother/daughter), Olimpia (Greek, perhaps..?), and Chiara (she seems to be the one from the neighboring town of Labico).

Male -- Alessandro/Carlo (father/son), Venanzio. Very little documentation for any of these aside from the names.

Nearer to my gen are the unrepeated names of Giacomo/Vito (father/son), Odoardo, Concetta and Elena.

Odoardo is the only one of those that is extremely rare in the records, the others have an average popularity.

I suppose further research is in order...

[MarcuccioV]

You listed three family surnames.

What are the towns where your earliest ancestors with those surnames lived?

As far as documented records, ALL from the hometown of Valmontone with these 2 POSSIBLE exceptions:

Marsili is an unpopular surname in Valmontone (only 2 or 3 families at most), however, it is a common surname in the neighboring town of Labico (just north a few miles).

Zorli (again not extremely popular in town, unlike SOME of the surnames like Massella or Malaspina to which I have no connections *as yet*), is the same as the one I found in Switzerland (that although the name & birthdate align, may be coincidental and unrelated).

All of this can be tempered by my DNA results which show ancestry from neighboring regions (and as far away as Sicily with a likely result). Most of the surnames in the tree can be found in all those regions, some extensively.

What makes it harder as the family hometown, being so close to Rome, would likely be a draw to people from these other regions for various reasons. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[MarcuccioV]

One of the other lesser-found surnames in town is my grandfather's name "Mattia". It is widespread across Italy, including Sicily (which may be where it came to Rome from, but I don't know for certain). There are a few others that are fairly rare.

I would assume these to be "later-comers" so they had a lesser span of years to develop branches than some of the extremely common surnames, which may have deeper roots in the area.

[PippoM]

Patron Saint of Valmontone is Aloysius of Gonzaga. NO versions of either appear in the civil records, believe it or not.

There ARE very popular male and female first names that repeat often (including among my ancestors) in town, Luigi, Francesco, Giuseppe and Giovanni being the most prevalent. Other first names range from average popularity to one-off's.

Maybe my comprehension of English is not sufficient, but...are you saying you can't find the name of the Patron among the most popular in town?

[MarcuccioV]

Patron Saint of Valmontone is Aloysius of Gonzaga. NO versions of either appear in the civil records, believe it or not.

There ARE very popular male and female first names that repeat often (including among my ancestors) in town, Luigi, Francesco, Giuseppe and Giovanni being the most prevalent. Other first names range from average popularity to one-off's.

Maybe my comprehension of English is not sufficient, but...are you saying you can't find the name of the Patron among the most popular in town?

Correct, Pippo. I have found it but not at nearly the frequency of say, "Luigi" or "Francesco", which seem the most, if not the THE most, popular in town. I rechecked and found a handful in years where I had no relatives myself.

[MarcuccioV]

Giuseppe and Giovanni (including Gio Battista) were popular as well...

Alessio and it's variants are rare, at least as far as I've found.