Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's

[SteveS]

Hi Guys - I've been lurking for a while but haven't been able to find an answer to my weird situation (even though I think it's kind of common) so please bear with me if I ask a question that's already been answered once or twice.

I grew up in a small coal town in Pennsylvania. Half the kids in school were descendants of the Italian men who came from Calabria to mine coal in the early 1900's.

My mother's side is completely Italian, from a small hill town called Isca, and I can track my ancestry there back to my 8 GG-grandparents (Thank you familysearch.org, you microfilming machines!)

My grandparents, born there in 1897, married in Isca in 1920. All 4 G-grandparents lived in town.

In 1921 my grandfather came to the US and worked for 10 years. In 1930 he secured a Certificate of Citizenship - not Naturalization - and returned back to Italy in 1930, where my grandparents... got reacquainted... and had my mother in 1931.

The weird thing - we don't (yet) know why my grandfather got a Cert. Of Citizenship instead of Naturalization. His parents are accounted for in Isca before his birth, he was the youngest child, of an 16-year string of children that left no gap for his father to be in America for enough years to naturalize. His mother died in Isca in 1906, his father would have been 55 or so, old enough to be unlikely to emigrate and then naturalize, especially with a large family in Italy.

The question - what does this mean? Would my grandfather being declared a (derivative) American citizen have removed his Italian citizenship?

What does this mean for my grandmother and mother? Would my grandfather being declared a derivative citizen in 1930 have removed my Grandmother's citizenship like naturalization would, even though she was living in Italy at the time and would therefore be rendered either stateless or an alien?

If my grandfathers circumstances were such that he was not "born Italian" what happens to my grandmothers citizenship when they marry in 1920?

Is it likely my mother is considered Italian? Through my grandmother at least? We know the family immigrated to the US in 1936 and she used her own child-sized American passport issued by the Naples consulate, but since she was American in the eyes of the US officials she never naturalized.

My grandmother did naturalize when my mother was 19 - but my grandfather was still alive, with whatever Italian status he actually had … and my mother was already a citizen so it didn't change anything for her... or did it?

Any thoughts?

[PippoM]

Was your mother born in Italy?

[suanj]

If I understand well, your mother was born in Isca on 1931, so her birth is recorded in Isca, right? This is all.

No problem.... Your grandfather never renounced to italian citizenship also in Italy..

He had a cert. of citizenship... no of naturalization... so I believe no declaration of intention and petition just a certificate of citizenship....
That before of 1931, right?
A italian civil records officer said me that when a italian renounce the italian citizenship also in Italy, his renunciation will be wrote on his italian birth record.
For exemple: a man became american by naturalization.. Never renounce to italian citizenship also in Italy, so when he is in Italy he is italian.... this same situation happens also abt a marriage in USA, and the wife remain in USA. The man makes back and forth in Italy and to marry also in Italy. But his american marriage never filed in Italy, in the his commune of residence, so he is a single for italian law.. and to marry also in Italy and have italian children, as a well have american children...

Well he is no bigamist in Italy and no bigamist in USA, because the marriage in USA was no recorded and filed in Italy, and ditto the italian marriage was no recorded and filed in USA..
So abt the italian citizenship renounce... If the man don't renounced also in Italy and he stay in Italy and had a daughter in Italy, and recorded the her birth in Italy, the daughter is italian born from a father and a mother italian that never renounced to italian citizenship in Italy....

just my opinion..

[SteveS]

>> Was your mother born in Italy?

Yes, in Isca in 1931, about a year after my grandfather returned from working in the States.

My concern is that whatever happened so that my grandfather was able to get an American cert of citizenship somehow taints my mother's claim. Since she falls into that weird 1912-1948 gap the overlapping changes in law about women and children are... let's just go with complicated.

The weird thing is that I'm baffled as to how my grandfather got a cert of citizenship instead of naturalization in the first place.

This is my grandfather, Ralph Dominianni, born, apparently uneventfully, in Isca in 1897, the youngest of 7 children.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2043789

His parents, Vinchenzo and Barbara were born there in the 1850's, married there in 1880 and their well-spaced children seem to keep Vinchenzo in Italy until at least 1897.

Barbera dies in 1906 at 49, and the death certificate says "wife of Vinchenzo", not fu Vinchenzo, so he didn't die early and she remarried an American or something like that.

After having Ralph in 1897 Vinchenzo is in his mid-40's with a large local family, he's not going to go to America and get naturalized (I think). At least there's no record. It's unlikely he went to America before he married because that was a bit too early for the mines.

Like I said, it's a weird one.

[Rruffolo]

I found this article on familysearch. I quot the pertinent info below.

United States Naturalization and Citizenship • FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Un ... itizenship

Under the Act of March 2, 1929, individuals who derived citizenship through a parent's naturalization could apply for and receive a Certificate of Citizenship in their own name. Applicants age 21 or older applied to the Bureau of Naturalization, later the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS, now USCIS), and that agency issues such certificates without any involvement of the courts

[Rruffolo]

I think your GF must have claimed derivative citizenship through his father.If you are trying to solve the mystery of the Certificate of Citizenship, look for documentation on Vinchenzo being in the U.S after your GF was born. Look at siblings or other family members that may have moved to the US with or prior to Vinchenzo. He may show up in one of their households.

I'm not sure how the Certificate of Citizenship impacts your GF's italian citizenship. Provided he didn't have to renounce anything you should be fine

[afecad]

My family came over a little earlier than yours from Isca sullo Ionio, my great-grandfather first arrived in 1898, then went back and forth a few times, naturalized in 1903 at the Northumberland County Courthouse, my great-grandmother did not naturalize thus why my case is now 1948 rule.

My great-grandfather worked in the mines, not sure if later the rules changed on right to work that required Italians to get some type of certificate of citizenship or ? I know my great-grandmother's parents, came over later from Isca sullo Ionio and he supposedly naturalized in the 1930's.

I was last in Isca sullo Ionio in 2019, the Municipio was closed and empty due to renovations, was told all records were stored at Isca Marina. Not sure on the current status? Was hoping to physically search the records. I have to get to my local family search location sometime to view older records on microfilm since online they are not available.

[mler]

I must agree with Rruffolo in part. Certificates of Citizenship issued by the US were granted to those who had no need to naturalize themselves (but required proof of citizenship) because they obtained citizenship through the naturalization of someone else, usually a parent.

However, during a certain period in US history some documents labeled “Certificate of Citizenship” were actually naturalization records, usually a naturalization that took place in a state, not federal, court. Someone in another forum posted a photo of what was labeled “Certificate of Citizenship” but was actually record of naturalization. So I learned something new.

If your gf did indeed naturalize in 1930—and based on the certificate and your mother’s passport, it appears that he did—your mom could not obtain citizenship through him. However, your grandmother would have retained her Italian citizenship, which would generally mean a 1948 case. The big complication, however, is that your mother came to the US as a minor with US citizenship likely through the naturalization of her father AND then your gm naturalized as well, again when your mother was still a minor (21 was the age of majority at that time).

(I was not able to attach the document because the file was too large, but Family Search has an image of a Certificate of Citizenship from Utah that is actually a record of naturalization.)

[Rruffolo]

Assuming the Italian commune has your mothers birth information and that they recognized her italian citizenship at birth you might be able to ignore your GFs certificate of citizenship.
Focus on proving that (1) your GF never naturalized after arriving in the U S. in 1936 and (2) your mother never naturalized.

Nonetheless I think your easiest route for your citizenship is through a 1948 case thru your GM who naturalized after your mother was an adult.

[mler]

That doesn’t work for two reasons:

There is little question that the mother was born in Italy as an Italian citizen, but that in and of itself does not prove that Italian citizenship was retained, and this is what the consulate will want demonstrated. In this case, I strongly suspect her father naturalized in 1930 before her birth in 1931 thus losing Italian citizenship for himself and for his daughter when she set foot on US soil in 1936. Note she arrived with a US passport. During that period, this would only be possible through a US-citizen father.

As to the 1948 possibility, that is also a problem. Her mother naturalized when she was 19 years old. At that time the age of majority was 21 so her father naturalized before her birth, and her mother naturalized during her minority. Since she was born in Italy, hers was a derivative naturalization either way.

I hate when things happen this way. Sometimes only a month makes a crucial difference.

[mler]

I did find several examples of Certificates of Citizenship that were actually Naturalization Certificates. Here is one:

https://dualusitalian.com/welcome/units ... documents/

And another:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... 1814641510

[Rruffolo]

You still might be able to use your GM's line. If your mother was a U.S citizen already than your GM's naturalization did not apply to your mother (Your mom was already a U.S citizen therfore your GM's naturalization did not "naturalize" your mother). You should consult an attorney.

As of 2019 the Italian courts are not consistent on how they view the Italian citizenship status of U.S children when their parents natualize.

https://www.mylawyerinitaly.com/dual-ci ... -rejected/


I expect the courts to have a more consistent stand on this matter sometime this year. For myself my 1948 case is up for appeal this Wednesday. My GGF naturalized when my U.S born GM was 12years old. So I'll let you know how my case ends up since you have a similar situation through your GM line

[mler]

You still might be able to use your GM's line. If your mother was a U.S citizen already than your GM's naturalization did not apply to your mother (Your mom was already a U.S citizen therfore your GM's naturalization did not "naturalize" your mother). You should consult an attorney.

As of 2019 the Italian courts are not consistent on how they view the Italian citizenship status of U.S children when their parents natualize.

The problem is that the mother was NOT born in the US, and thus was not a US child. Had she been born in the US, her father’s naturalization would still be a problem, but she would have had a 1948 case through her still-Italian mother. Those are the cases that have been causing issues in the courts in that some judges have ruled that the minor child born with jus soli US citizenship lost that citizenship when the parent naturalized. This interpretation is correctly being challenged because the jus soli child is clearly protected by the 1912 law.

However, the mother’s birth in Italy is what makes this case different from those you describe. Yes, she was already a US citizen when her mom naturalized but not through “birth on soil” (jus soli). And the 1912 law protects the citizenship of only those who obtained a foreign citizenship jus soli.

In your case, the minor child obtained her US citizenship jus soli, and according to the provisions of the 1912 law, her Italian citizenship was protected. I do expect that cases such as yours will be successfully appealed.

[SteveS]

.... However, during a certain period in US history some documents labeled “Certificate of Citizenship” were actually naturalization records, usually a naturalization that took place in a state, not federal, court. Someone in another forum posted a photo of what was labeled “Certificate of Citizenship” but was actually record of naturalization. So I learned something new.

Yeah, gotta admit, even before you guys mentioned it, I had dug deep enough to start to suspect that somehow my grandfather had naturalized but they had issued him a certificate of citizenship instead. There just doesn't seem like there's much of a window for his parents to be naturalized before him.

Still the really weird thing is that I have actually seen certificates of naturalization from this specific court (Common Pleas Court, Northumberland county, Pennsylvania) from around his time frame, so they clearly had those specific documents in use there... at least occasionally. Then again, I grew up in the area, so I know the regional knack for attention to detail on official paperwork can be... variable.

I have a records search started at USCIS to see if I can dig up his supporting documentation, but they're backlogged up to 180 days, so I expect to see nothing soon. Also, the Northumberland county historical society now has access to court records and offers genealogy searches at extremely reasonable rates, I have an inquiry to them.

Still - I've got my fingers crossed. it would certainly make things a lot easier....

My family came over a little earlier than yours from Isca sullo Ionio, my great-grandfather first arrived in 1898, then went back and forth a few times, naturalized in 1903 at the Northumberland County Courthouse, my great-grandmother did not naturalize thus why my case is now 1948 rule.

afecad: Have you actually seen your families naturalization certificates? That's the same courthouse my grandfather used, so I'm curious what your earlier paperwork might say.

[SteveS]

However, the mother’s birth in Italy is what makes this case different from those you describe. Yes, she was already a US citizen when her mom naturalized but not through “birth on soil” (jus soli). And the 1912 law protects the citizenship of only those who obtained a foreign citizenship jus soli.

Well, poop.

Actually, this isn't all that surprising, My pattern with all things timing related is to consistently end up just on the wrong side of any given line.

Also, the rules for women in this era are -- let's go with complicated.

But let me wrap my head around the exact details of the issue (I'm not looking to argue, just trying to tease out the exact legal reasoning because that's the first step in looking for loopholes)

First, did my grandmother back in Italy loose her citizenship when my grandfather naturalized in the US? the way I read the laws, that seems possible, but it also seems over the top, even for a time and place where citizenship was rigidly defined through the male line.

But past that, let me understand the simpler case where an American man went to Italy and had a child there with an Italian woman in 1931.

Is that child Italian? In the eyes of the US at least, she's American and they give her a passport. Does Italy agree?

If I understand you correctly, Italy's position (again in 1931) is that she seems to be Italian until the moment she sets foot on American soil, then her father's citizenship kicks in and her Italian citizenship switches off. Do I have that even remotely correct?

What would have happened if she never left Italy? I assume the question would never have come up and she would have sort of functionally reverted to Italian?

I now understand why lawyers get paid what they do to understand this stuff.