Jure Sanguinis Help - Marriage Certificate Roadblock

[JonJCurtoJr]

I have an appointment with the Italian Consulate in Miami in March this year.

I have all of the documents I need aside from marriage certificates for my Great-Grandparents and Grandparents.

Since I have all of the documents, none of the agencies will help me. I've reached out to Coco Ruggeri and Luigi Paiano, but have not heard back from them.

I have reached out to the Italian Consulate by phone and by email, but have yet to hear back from them. It is also nearly impossible to get in touch with anyone there.

I have also reached out to professional genealogists in hopes that they can find the certificates, but we are running out of time with our appointment rapidly approaching.

At this point, I am at a loss as to what I can do.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Grazie mille!

[mler]

Were your grandparents and great grandparents married in Italy or in the US? Do you know where they were married? Is it possible they never married?

Ask your father/mother if he/she knows where and approximately when the grandparents married. With this information, you can ask for a search and perhaps a document stating that no records were found.

With Italian records, you may get lucky with an Antenati search.

If all else fails, try to obtain as much documentation as possible demonstrating their relationship (census records, travel documents, naturalization papers).

[JonJCurtoJr]

Mler,

I am almost 100% certain that my great-grandparents were married in the United States, as they both immigrated to America from Italy at different times and my great-grandmother (GGM) did so when she was about 9 years old.

That being said, I have performed searches in all five New York City (NYC) boroughs beginning the year my GGM turned 12 until the year that my great-grandfather (GGF) passed away and have not been able to find a certificate.

I also have US Censuses going back to 1910 listing my GGF and GGM living together as husband and wife, WWI and WWII Draft documents where my GGF listed my GGM as his wife, my grandfather's (GF) birth certificate listing my GGF and GGM as parents and as married, as well as my GGF's death certificate listing my GGM as his wife.

Neither my GGF or GGM were naturalized as US Citizens.

For my grandparents, I've searched all NYC boroughs beginning two years before my GF was divorced by his first wife, up until the year that he passed away. I've also performed searches in Long Island, NY and Florida, where my grandparents lived after having their first child.

I have a 1950 US Census with my GF and GM living together in Long Island and listed as husband and wife as well as my father's birth certificate with them both listed as husband and wife and my GF's death certificate with my GM listed as his wife.

For all of these searches, I have "No Record Found" documents from NYC, etc.

My only concern is that having all I've detailed above will not be enough to take the place of the actual marriage certificates. I considered hiring a professional genealogists, but they want to charge $2,500 just to search for the documents. I can't rationalize spending that kind of money not knowing it will be sufficient for the application, especially if I have to eventually hire an attorney to petition the courts for a ruling on this.

Any further guidance or insight you or anyone else here can offer is greatly appreciated!

[mler]

Just a few things to note:

If your great grandparents arrived in the US as children, you will need to trace back to THEIR parents to ensure that either or both did not receive derivative naturalization through the naturalization of their parents. Do the censuses list them as “A” (Alien)? (When records show “no naturalization” the consulates will expect you to provide information from the preceding generation. That’s because it is entirely possible for a child to become naturalized derivatively and have no naturalization record in his/her name.)

If you’ve already checked that possibility and are still good, you may want to check NJ as a possibility.

If you still can’t find marriage records, go in with your “no record found” letters. You have other documentation showing that they were married and, in reality, the marriage issue is less important than tracing a direct line from generation to generation. If the consulate finds this unacceptable, they will tell you what additional paperwork will suffice as a substitute, and you can take it from there.

Try not to worry. Best of luck.

[JonJCurtoJr]

Thank mler.

Luckily my GGF's parents never immigrated to the US and my GGM's parents came over many years after her and by all records never naturalized either.

On all US Censuses from 1910-1950 my GGF and GGM are listed as "A" (as is my GGM's parents after their arrival) and on both of their death certificates they are listed as "Citizens of Italy" at the time of their death.

I guess worst case scenario we go in with what we have and if it falls short, we get another three months. Hopefully we don't have to reschedule after that and wait another few years. If we do, then we do. No worries. We'll get it all wrapped up eventually.

[JTSD20]

Hi JonJCurtoJr,

Mler has the best advice. But if you still end up wanting to track down that marriage certificate I have a couple of ideas. I've gone on a wild goose chase for a couple marriage certificates in my journey.

My advice is, (if money isn't so much an issue) try states that bordered on where your ancestors lived. I had a great grandpa who was born and lived with his wife in Philadelphia and then retired in Florida. I was hitting every county in PA and tried Florida too. Turns out they married in nearby New Jersey! I had an ancestor who was born and raised in Louisiana and I hit every parish there. I took a chance and sent some search requests to nearby Mississippi. Imagine my shock when I get the marriage record from some tiny town in MS where my ancestor never even lived.

If every borough in NY is coming up empty, I would try to hit the state closest to them just in case. I have no idea why my ancestors married outside their state, but casting a wider net really helped me.

[mler]

You seem to be in good shape. Just check a few of the adjacent states, as suggested by JTSD20. You may just get lucky. If not, try not to worry, everything else looks good.

[JonJCurtoJr]

JTSD20 and mler,

Thank you so much for the advice and kind words. It looks like we found my GGPs' marriage certificate in NYC!

Now, just needing the marriage certificate for my GPs. I am going to search New Jersey and Florida per JTSD's advice. I have a feeling they married some time around 1950 in New York, but casting a wider net never hurt!

Thanks again!

[JonJCurtoJr]

An update on this and ADVICE for anyone having issues finding Marriage Certificates for family that were likely married sometime in the 1930-1960 range...

I checked the Maryland State Archives and it turns out that my Grandparents were married in Maryland in 1955.

I have been searching for years in all of the places they lived and visited that I knew of. We enlisted the help of agencies and genealogists, to no avail.

Yet, off of a passing recommendation from Peter at ItalyMondo, I checked Maryland and I found it! He indicated that many people made the quick trip to Maryland from all over the Northeast back then as it was the only state in the region that did not require a blood test to get married in those days.

Hopefully this is helpful for someone.