Was my grand father an Italian citizen?

[capo1]

I dont see a databaase for Lazio. guess I am out of luck from ancestry.com?

[reneek232000]

A lot of states and cities have archived information available for free online. Search around like crazy and see how much free info you can get. Also try searching Ellis Island passenger list and you might find out where your GGF came from in Italy. Once you have his birth day try writing to the commune he came from and give them all the information you have on him. Of course in Italian , try google translate or something online. It wont be perfect but they will understand what your trying to say.That's what I did and I received my GGF & GGM birth certificates and their marriage certificate for free. The online international vital sites can charge a lot of money and in cases find nothing. So keep up the search and try and do it on your own.

I just wrote to Rome for my GGF death certificate. He died in Rome while visiting his sister but by that time he was an American so I don't know if I'm going to get anything back or not. I have my fingers crossed. Good luck to you

[capo1]

Sorry for the double post

Ask them for a document stating he was an Italian citizen- the anagrafe can print out a certificato di cittadinanza with a press of a button.

My local consulate told me to ask for a “Certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italianaâ€

[capo1]

Where/how would I contact the "anagrafe" (see quote above)?

My GF lived and my GGF was born in the town of Pontecorvo region of Lazio.

[capo1]

In reference to above, does anyone know if a naturalization record from the US has the original DOB of its applicant?
This would give the exact DOB or both my GGP's

[mler]

The naturalization record does include the date of birth of the applicant but not the date of birth of his/her parents.

If you discover that your GF was an Italian citizen, you would then have to document that he never naturalized in this country (or that he naturalized after your parent's birth). Actually, if your GF did naturalize, the naturalization documents would indicate the country in which he held citizenship, so that may be enough to document the date in which citizenship was lost.

[capo1]

Thank you for the quick answer...I am waiting for my GGF nat rec from the USCIS and have a query in on my GGM. Hopefully they will find her record in which case I will have the exact DOB for both my GGP's which will make things much easier when aquiring their docs from Italy.

In reference to the forementioned on my GF. He was born here, but I am not sure if he was registered as an Italian citizen when he returned there. That is where the:
[quote]My local consulate told me to ask for a “Certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italianaâ€

[mler]

It is quite likely--almost certain--that your GF never became an Italian citizen since your GGF naturalized only five years after his birth. If your GF never naturalized when he returned to this country, that probably confirms this.

If I were in your position, I would work this through my GGF. Since you have your GGF's naturalization information, you can easily obtain the naturalization documents you need. And since your GF was born an American citizen, the citizenship line remained intact.

[capo1]

So I just got back some information on my GGF from USCIS....
I was hoping for a clear ledgable copy of his naturalization cert. to give to the consulate when I get all my docs in order.
Instead what I got was a barely ledgable photo copy of the doc.
When I callled and asked them where I can get an "original copy" they told me I have to go to my local field office in Newark.
Is this the case .............or is there another way to get an original copy of a Naturalization certificate?
This packet of info cost me 55$ you would think it would be at least ledgable...I know the Italian Consulate wont accept it so I wouldnt even think of bringing to them. But it wasnt a total loss... this packet of photo copies at least provided me with his exact DOB and to my surprise his DOD which I had absolutley know idea how or where I was going to find that.

[ItalianFood]

just a tip.... My grandfathers birthdate was Dec.5,1880 as listed on his World War 1 draft card and his drivers license but on his application for social security he listed his birthdate as Dec.5,1882.Several letters to Italy did not produce a birth certificate.More research through the Latter Day Saints turned up the REAL birthdate of Dec.5,1879.I sent a new request to Italy and they sent me his birth certificate in 1 week.So deciding the ACTUAL birthdate is not always as easy as looking at US records.

[arist]

Funny, I just discovered today I'm in a very similar situation.

I've been collecting documents for the last few months with intent to apply through my GGGF. Who I don't believe naturalized (still waiting on court searches) However...found naturalization records today of my GGF

My GGF was born in US in 1900, moved to Italy in 1904, where he stayed until 1923, sometime in Italy, he must have officially (? confusing part) became Italian, or completely lost is US citizenship, fought in WWI, returned to US 1923, had my GM in 1935 and NATURALIZED in 1943.

Very confusing. Now I'm looking into getting records from Italy that would show my GGF was an Italian Cit. Some say the Nat. papers aren't enough. I would like to avoid my GGGF altogether now, and apply by my GGF. As I'm afraid of getting denied due to the fact that my GGGF never naturalized and my GGF was born before 1912 (happened to one applicant recently in NY)

I've spoken to the Comune where I received all the documents of my GGGP's and they say there is no trace of any of their 3 US born children. If he fought in WWI, I would imagine there is some record of it in Naples.

Anyone have any suggestions??

[PeterTimber]

If Napoli was his town of origin provincial capital then send request to Archivio di Stato di Napoli, Piazzetta Grande Archivio 5, 80138 Napoli, Italy

Go to www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/saviello2.html for conscription records letter in Italian. =Peter=

[arist]

His town was Muro Lucano, Province; Potenza in Basilicata region.

It's been said he ran away from home, joined the military. Where would I locate a military record? Any idea where the Distretti Militare is for this region? Naples?

[mler]

It's awfully hard to lose U.S. citizenship. It did happen for women before the 1922 Cable Act if they married foreign men, but a U.S.-born male would not have lost citizenship so readily.

Many Italians "naturalized" in the 1940's to affirm their loyalty to the U.S. Some, like my grandfather, had never naturalized earlier; some wanted confirmation of their citizenship because they naturalized as minors with their parents and wanted something with their name indicating they were indeed citizens; and others like your ggf may have done so because of the many years they spent in Italy. Keep in mind, too, that many men served in the U.S. army during WWI who were not American citizens--some are doing so today. So serving in a foreign army does not necessarily indicate citizenship. Your ggf may not have realized this, and with the U.S. in the middle of WWII, may have thought it best to confirm his citizenship.

Therefore, it is entirely possible (and quite likely) that, although he lived in Italy and served in the Italian army, your ggf never naturalized as an Italian since he could not have naturalized as a child, and he left Italy at age 23. Also, because his birth was never registered at his comune, more likely than not, during your ggf's time in Italy, he remained a U.S. citizen.

Given that you are not required to be a citizen to serve in the army, that his birth was not registered at his comune, and that he was born in the U.S., I doubt that military records will convince the consulate that he held Italian citizenship during his period in Italy. More important to them is that U.S. birth certificate (naturalization record nonwithstanding). This, of course, does take you back to your gggf.

If I were in your position, I would not submit naturalization papers for my ggf unless I had definitive proof (not military records) that he naturalized in Italy. Without such proof, the U.S. naturalization papers do nothing but complicate the issue. The before-1912 birth may not be an issue if your gggf never naturalized.

So to answer your basic question: Your ggf may well have been an Italian citizen, but the military records will not prove this. Nor will U.S. naturalization papers. For real proof you would need a registration of his birth in Italy or proof of Italian naturalization. (You are either born Italian or naturalize to become Italian.) I believe you will need to go a straight jure sanguinis route beginning with your gggf.

[arist]

Interesting, mler.

Thanks very much.

Are you familiar with what a naturalization document is called in Italy? And where to find it?

I know my GGF's sister returned to the US a year after he did. She applied for a US passport in Naples before coming over. I wonder why he didn't do the same? Also on his returning ship manifest, there's a stamp next to his name that says "CL. USC" I believe this means "Claims US Cit.," yes? While others who had documented proof got the stamp "US CIT."

There have been talks by my GM and her siblings that their father ran away from home while in Italy at a young age because of abuse by the step mother. They estimated 15 and that he lived on a farm. I'm wondering where I could find documents for maybe an entire province that would help me.

What documents can I find that would show he became an Italian citizen? An Italian Passport and Italian naturalization papers? Who will hold these, if its not the small comune? Potenza...Naples?