Locating citizenship of my grandfather, born in Egypt

[amarsarit]

Hello all,
I'd like to receive some expert advice on this issue please.
My grandfather was born to a Jewish family in Cairo in 1929. He did not have an Egyptian citizenship but I recently discovered he (as well as sibling and parents) had an Italian passport when he left Egypt for Israel.
We know for sure they had Italian passports and we also know that he and his family left Egypt to spend a few months in Naples, because his mother had to undergo a surgery and then recover there in Naples. I assume she couldn't receive medical treatment without having a citizenship. From Naples they came to Israel in Oct 1949.

We don't have his or the others' passports s.

I'd like to locate his vital records, the ones that will indicate his citizenship. Since I don't have the passport, I don't know which city issued it.
I reached out to:
- Italian Embassy in Israel, and they did not find his details in their documents.
- The Italian Embassy in Egypt responded that they do not have access to their archives because of security problems (I think there was some sort of attack on the embassy a few years ago?). That was probably my best chance
- I reached out to several cities' archives but did not get a response, and I can't imagine I'll be able to to reach ALL cities in ALL of Italy..


In this situation, what would you suggest?
1. Since he was born in Cairo, he probably applied for his Italian citizenship in Cairo and his passport was issued in Cairo as well. What was the process like in terms of association to a specific city in this case? When you're issues a citizenship by the Embassy? Is an issuing city randomly chosen?
2. What sort of central indexes (regional/provincial) indexes would you recommend I reach out to, so that I don't have to reach EVERY city for a possible record?
3. Considering the Italian embassy in Cairo isn't functioning and their records aren't available physically, does the Italian government has some sort of copy of these records that can be possibly accessed?

I'll appreciate any tips and suggestions!

[suanj]

Welcome!

I think that before answering your questions, it would be better to ascertain if they were Italians, if they had the Italian passport really. The fact that they were in Naples for her mother's surgical operation means nothing, because Naples is a big town with many foreign residents, and medical care was by payment. So if they could pay for the hospital and the surgery, there were no problems, whether they were Italians or not.
Best regards,
suanj

[mler]

Suanj is correct that it was possible to receive medical treatment in Italy even if you weren't an Italian citizen, so you need to be sure that your family's recollections are correct regarding his passport.

However, if you are certain that your grandfather had an Italian passport, then his father was probably born in Italy and was a citizen. Perhaps you should start with him. (If you ggf was an Italian citizen, he probably registered his son's birth at the consulate in Cairo. It's unfortunate that the records are unavailable.)

If you start with your ggf, it would be helpful if you had some idea of the region in Italy in which he was born. You might consider starting with Napoli. Since they returned to Napoli for medical treatment, they may have been familiar with that area. If you are able to locate your ggf's birth certificate, you can then begin to track the citizenship line, but always keep in mind that naturalization before 1992 ended Italian citizenship for the parent and for his foreign-born minor children.

I need to emphasize that your search should begin with your great grandfather. It was from him that Italian citizenship was passed on to his children. If you are able to find his Italian birth certificate, you can trace citizenship through him even without the passport.

[jennabet]

How do you know for sure that they had Italian passports if you haven't seen the passports? I tend to agree with Suanj that your ancestors may not have been Italians. However, based on the year of birth of your grand-father (1929) if your great-grandfather WAS born in Italy it would have been before 1910 and I can't see a reason for an Italian born in Italy in 1910 to emigrate to Cairo, unless of course, his parents were Egyptians, which would mean your great-grandfather was also not Italian if he was born in Italy to foreigners.

[mler]

To clarify, Suanj simply said it would be important to ascertain if the ancestors really had passports. It is obviously essential to determine if they were indeed Italian citizens, passports notwithstanding, because without proof of citizenship, there is no Italian line to trace.

It is not necessary to speculate why a family in the early 20th century chose to emigrate to Cairo. We may well ask why some families emigrated to the US, to Australia, to Argentina, etc. Those were difficult times for some in Italy, and emigration to different parts of the world was quite common.

In fact, emigration from Italy to Egypt was not that uncommon. This from a Wikipedia entry:

"From the time of Napoleon I, the Italian community in Alexandria and Egypt started to grow in a huge way: the size of the community had reached around 55,000 just before World War II, forming the second largest expatriate community in Egypt."

[jennabet]

I can speculate or suggest anything that I feel may be relevant just as Suanj speculated that they may not have been Italians. I notice you didn't bother providing anything from Wikpedia about the medical care in Naples available to anyone able to pay.

[mler]

LOL! We don't need Wikipedia for that. It's quite obvious that non-citizens can get medical care in Napoli, or in fact in NY, or in Madrid, or in Paris, or in Cairo--in fact, just about anywhere if you can pay for that care.

It has no bearing on the possible citizenship of the grandfather unless, of course, he used an Italian passport to travel between countries. But certainly the fact that someone emigrates to a country (any country) is no evidence that he was not born an Italian citizen.

[jennabet]

Between 1910 and 1929, Italians who left Italy went mostly to America and South America. I live in Italy and I don't know anyone who's ancestors went to Cairo during that time.

[jennabet]

Amarsarit, what is the cognome (sur name) of the family from Cairo? If it's an Italian name, we could possibly tell you what region/province it comes from. If it's not an Italian name, the family may not be Italian.

[mler]

It's interesting. You know quite well that many Italians emigrated in the early 20th century, but because you personally don't know of people who emigrated to Cairo, you can't believe it happened. Yes, many more people emigrated to the Americas and places like Australia, but not all.

I wonder why when someone says her Italian ancestor emigrated to Egypt, you automatically question whether that emigre was really Italian, ask about their surname, and speculate that he was probably an Egyptian living in Italy and not an Italian citizen? What exactly is the difference between an Italian emigre to the US and an Italian emigre to Egypt?

BTW, that fact that the family ended up in Israel, may mean the family was Jewish. But that, too, does not preclude Italian citizenship.

Edited to add: in rereading the original post, the family was indeed Jewish, which may explain the decision to emigrate to that area. There was a large and thriving Jewish community in Cairo during the early part of the 20th century. As far as surnames are concerned, not all Italian Jews had Italian-sounding surnames, so unfortunately, that may not provide a clue. Worth a shot, though.

[mler]

Amarsarit, you may want to try checking some of the Jewish archives in Italy. From a Jewish genealogy site:

There is no complete index to all the documents kept by the Jewish Communities in Italy. The individual communities themselves sometimes do not have a complete catalogue of the documents they store. The best way is to research in their files is thought publications or directly on site. The Jewish Communities generally have documents from the 19th century to Second World War. In some cases, they have very rich and old archives. For example, the Archive of the Jewish Community of Livorno has a collection of ketubot dating from 1626, and the Archive of the Jewish Community of Rome has matrimonial registers dating from 1775.

Here are some published catalogues of archives and libraries of Communities:

Venezia (Venice). Eurigio Tonetti, (ed.), Inventario dell'archivio della Comunità israelitica di Venezia, Venezia, [s. n.], 1984.
Livorno (Leghorn). Comunita' ebraica di Livorno, Edizioni ebraiche del 16. secolo nella Biblioteca del Talmud Tora' di Livorno descritte ed annotate a cura di Angelo Piattelli, Roma - Livorno, Grafica Ariete 1992.
Verona. Comunita ebraica di Verona, Daniela Bramati, Crescenzo Piattelli, Giuliano Tamani (eds.), La biblioteca della Comunita' ebraica di Verona: il fondo ebraico. Biblioteca civica, Verona 1999.
Firenze (Florence). Lionella Viterbo, Spigolando nell'archivio della Comuinità ebraica di Firenze, Giuntina, Firenze 1997.
As lot of the records kept by Jewish Communities are not catalogued, you can write to the Rabbi to obtain general information about the archives of the Community or to ask a specific research question. It is often much easier to communicate (as to subject matter and language, etc.) with the Communities than with other archives. Remember, however, that most of the archives and libraries of the Communities are run by volunteers.

The addresses of Italian Jewish Communities can be found on the web page of the U.C.E.I. (Union of Italian Jewish Communities). Also, the Morasha website lists addresses for Jewish communities, Jewish institutions and foundations, as well as the opening hours, etc.

Italian Family History have some example of Jewish documents from the Archives of the Jewish Communities.

[mler]

There are more sources of information on the site I just referenced. Do check it out, and best of luck.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Ital ... tm#History

[mmogno]

See
http://www.ajoe.org/accueil.html

L’EMIGRAZIONE ITALIANA NELL’AFRICA MEDITERRANEA
Antonio Cortese
http://dipeco.uniroma3.it/public/WP%201 ... 012(1).pdf

https://s10.postimg.org/usueyk3yh/Cattura1.png

[mler]

Thank you, mmogno, that was really interesting.

BTW, amarsarit, I believe that Egypt was a jus soli country. That would mean that even if your grandfather was an Italian citizen, he may have acquired Egyptian citizenship by being born in that country. Because it was automatic citizenship, however, it would not have affected his Italian citizenship.

[suanj]

I did not make any speculation.
I think, that it is necessary to ascertain first of all if they really had the Italian passport. Recommending to make sure,
it is not a speculation.

Because Amarsarit say that the grandfather was born in the Cairo on 1929, from a jewish family with italian passports, and if also the grandfather had italian passport- whether amarsarit is either certain or uncertain of that- this means that they had Italian citizenship by some way, or because italians to 100% or because acquired the italian citizenship, and also if the grandfather was born in Cairo on 1929 and had italian passport, which means that his birth was also recorded, filed, also in Italy, through an Italian Consulate in Egypt and therefore the grandfather was an Italian citizen born abroad...
Medical care, hospital and surgery, as I said do not mean anything about the citizenship...

I think the best way to deal with this research is to first seek out in Israel. There will be a record of all Jews going to Israel to settle forever. In Italy, each municipality has a register of citizenship, where it is stated that the family from a certain date places its residence in that municipality and establishes it for its own reasons. And there is exactly mentioned the name and surname, birthdates and birthplaces of each family member. Obviously the statement, it is not enough, it needs present the birth and family certificates issued by the place where it comes from...
I understand that the state of Israel was just born, and perhaps in 1949 it was still organizing with all arrivals, but I'm sure that either in 1949 or later there must be the document concerning your grandfather's family and also nationality.

Here is what I think the first step to address this research is to look to Israel and then to understand whether receiving Israeli citizenship meant giving up on citizenship of origins. That is, if the purchase of new citizenship automatically provides for the renunciation of the previous citizenship.

Here is what I think the first step to address this research is to look to Israel and then to know whether acquire Israeli citizenship meant giving up on originary citizenship. That is, if the purchase of new citizenship automatically provides for the renunciation of the previous citizenship.
I do not know, because it is a type of research that is new to me, despite my experience, because we are talking about a newborn Nation...


So I said that it is necessary to make sure that they were Italians and that they maintained Italian citizenship when they acquired the Israelian citizenship.

Responses to other questions are subordinate to this basic condition: being really safe with regard to nationality of origin.

As for the Italians in Egypt, I can say that the largest percentage came from southern Italy, namely Sicily and Calabria, and then from other regions.
Best regards,
suanj