Italy during WWI

[mler]

Women didn't count at all before 1948. How sad! You know you have such a crazy situation, because dual citizenship was not permitted until 1992. What I think happened was that your great grandfather was Italian by virtue of being born and living in Italy for more than 21 years, and was American by virtue of your great great grandfather's naturalization.

Actually, he was an "illegal" dual citizen, because neither Italy nor the U.S. knew of the existence of the other citizenship. How totally weird!!

If I were in your position, I would totally ignore the naturalization part and concentrate on the Italian part. Then you can use your great grandfather as the source of your citizenship. Somehow, though, you will need to show proof that he never naturalized, and the only thing that might get you into trouble is if the National Archives comes up with something.

Good luck, and have fun.

[Maestranzi]

sorry mler, i just now see that you already answered me. however, what does majority mean? you say that you must be born in italy and reside there for your majority to be an italian citizen, but was exactly does majority mean. this should apply to my great grandfather being that he was there until he was 27, and he was born there. now this is where it probably gets tricky. Since he was born a u.s. citizen (only b/c of his father being naturalized), but lived in italy for his majority, by the time he was in his 20's did he just become an italian citizen or both italian and u.s.

i know u said that there was no such thing as dual citizenship, but in this case i dont see how there couldn't be. unless that meant he was no longer a u.s citizen once he spent his majority in italy? but i think that when he did finally come to the u.s. that it said he became an automatic u.s citizen b/c of his father. there are no records of any naturalization (at least here in chicago, b/c i just got back from the consulate) and I know that Chicago was the only place he lived once he came here, so I'm guessing he was never naturalized. But I did find him on a passanger list and I believe it says (under the space that asks if he was naturalized) that he was now a u.s. citizen b/c of his father. So where do you think I stand now? confusing for me.

[mler]

Maestranzi, it's confusing for me too. First of all "majority" means that he reached his adulthood, and your great grandfather did indeed do that.

Your problems is a weird one. He couldn't legally be a citizen of both countries, but I think he certainly thought he was; and why wouldn't he since both countries accepted him as a citizen. Maybe this story will explain it.

My husband is a naturalized American citizen. One day in the 1980s he got a call from the Italian consulate in Philadelphia telling him that he was considered a criminal in Italy because he never registered for the Italian draft. My husband said, "But, I'm American," and the man replied, "Well, you never told us that, and if you ever set foot in Italy, you will be arrested." So my husband went to Philly and showed them his naturalization papers, and Italy took him off its "Most Wanted" list.

I don't think Italy ever knew your great grandfather was a naturalized American. And because they didn't know, they always considered him Italian. I think you should consider him Italian too, because that is what will work for you, but be careful that you don't submit anything to the consulate that might indicate he was naturalized before your grandfather was born.

Passenger list? What passenger list???? Forget about the passenger list and go with: "I asked for a Naturalization Certificate, and they came back with 'no records found.'"

[mler]

Sorry, I entered my message twice.

[suanj]

mier:

- old law: the child born in Italy and resident in Italy from birth and until 18 of age, it can to obtain automatically the italian citizenship by a simply request made it in the year from 18° birthday to 19° birthday; he can choice if to become italian citizen or no.
- new law: it have the italian citizenship the child born in Italy... son of immigrants in Italy resident in Italy almost from 8 years, or if they have the "carta di soggiorno" (residence permission) almost from 2 years;

http://www.stranieriinitalia.it/news/te ... pr2005.doc
2 years is as a automatic citizenship!
regards, suanj

[mler]

Suanj, I know the law to which you refer. It is a modification of the law that was placed into effect when dual citizenship was permitted (1992). But this does not confer automatic citizenship. This is a citizenship for which an application must be made, and I believe you must be in possession of a permesso di soggiorno before application. The rules for automatic citizenship based on being born in Italy are those that I gave in a previous posting. They were taken from the website of an Italian Consulate in the U.S.

In any case, this is not an issue for Maestranzi, whose great great grandfather lived in Italy considerably earlier than 1992. His is a unique situation, one which will have to be dealt with in a unique manner.

A proposito, ho notato che sei italiano (italiana). Scrivi in inglese molto bene. Mille grazie per il tuo aiuto.

[suanj]

Hi mier thank you for kind word, yes I'm italian ... yes I understand about maestranzi, but is impossible to say some thing because we don't know the ancestors situation ... about the law, yes is no automatic in strong sense, but is as automatic, because 2 year of residence( right residence) is a little particular... obviously the italian law is strong for the citizenship, and I hope that will be most strong again, because for a italian emigrant now all descendants want the citizenship, and the law must be rewiew in some part, so I read that in future only the descendants of italian emigrants that they decide of to live in Italy they will be able the citizenship by jus sanguinis... and currently the "jus soli " is completely active in some other european country, but no in Italy, because needing almost 2 years of regular residence of parents for to obtain the citizenship of child born in Italy, but for we this is as automatic citizenship for child born in Italy, because 2 years is very little particular... personally I think that is better don't give the citizenship in this way and so, because it involves a destabilizing change of italian people especially in political part.. I think that it would be best to give the italian citizenship only with more determined conditions......
regards, suanj

[mler]

Suanj, I understand what you mean about how the citizenship laws affect a country. In my own country (U.S.) anyone is a citizen, truly automatically, just by being born within our borders. Even if the child's parents are in the country illegally, their children born here are citizens.

I think the U.S. is more liberal in its immigration policy because ours is a country of immigrants. Immigration is a relatively new phenomenon in Italy, and as more and more people from other countries, emigrate TO Italy, the country loses a bit of its cultural identity. I can certainly understand your feelings about this.

In reality, though, this change is inevitable. The establishment of the European Union blurs the line among member countries. Anyone from any EU nation can live in Italy, work in Italy, and in general come and go as he pleases. Italy is more likely to see cultural changes within its borders from the Germans, the Austrians, the English, etc. who now, in increasing numbers, make Italy their home.

Italy has considerably less to fear from those who are descended from Italian citizens who want to reestablish a connection to the homeland of their ancestors, people who come to Italy with a strong appreciation of Italy and its culture.

[suanj]

Hi mier, yes is so, the Italy is a traditional country and no immigration land, so is a suffering for we, also is very little territory, and we cannot to have all this immigration from Senegaleses, Moroccans, Russians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Roumanians, Albanians, Polishes, Latin Americans, Chineses, Kurdishes, Indians... etc.. really our cultural identity is in danger... and more the italian people don't accepted and don't accept this change... all this people have caused many confusion and many problems and more taxes and less job and less job's rights for the italians.. this is cause of suffering ... the Italy is a Nation also with a precise identity and what happened is no good for we... if also we think the fights between of them of this people immigrated .. ehhhh it is a great problem also... moreover they don't want to integrate itself in italian culture, it is a great problem!!! I don't love this... I love the Italy as was ... about the european citizens, this is no a problem, because almost we have same roots for most part; the problem is the enlargement of UE to other country that historically and geographically they don't are european... another problem... about the descendants of italians emigrated we love it, and the citizenship is a good thing, what is no good a formal citizenship the right with political ballot and enough; or this people that they accept the italian citizenship and they went in Italy or they accept the formal citizenship without political ballot, because they don't know the reality of Italy because they lived elsewhere ... or a active citizenship in all sense or a formal citizenship without political ballot right... the political ballot right is just for the italians that are in foreign countries for some time and that they have the family in Italy and that they must to retourn here, otherwise, really this is a large confusion... just my opinion...regards suanj

[mler]

What you say makes a lot of sense, Suanj. It's true that many descendents of Italians know little about the political realities in Italy. And why should someone who has never lived in Italy or does not intend to live in Italy have a voice in its political direction? A citizenship that does not confer the right to vote seems only fair.

I understand too the difference between immigrants from Europe and immigrants from non-western countries. How sad it is to see the traditions of a country change because new people come who do not respect the culture of the country to which they emigrate.

In the U.S. today, it seems that everything is done in both English and Spanish. Spanish is quickly becoming a second language here, and to me it's a problem when people immigrate and don't want to learn the language of the country. This year, some politicians began called "Christmas trees," "holiday trees," because they didn't want to offend Americans who are not Christian. The U.S. is becoming crazy; I hope it doesn't happen to Italy.

[suanj]

Hi mier, this is already happen in Italy... they don't want the cruise in the classrooms, they have the own churchs ( no christians), many people don't want to abandone the folk clothes, and especially the women of other religion... a problem, it is an invasion... is increased breathtakingly the prostitution of foreign women, drug problems, homicides, and etc... thefts in the storees and the villas and also with italian victims... this don't can be in a nation as Italy... no... no good thing is this... the illegal immigrants make of all, all bad things.... no, need a strong law, very strong... my last long trip was in Liguria region, some year ago, by train... a choc for me for all this people in the train and in the railways station... this are peoples that don't want occidental culture, no, absolutely no... and I don't say about the problems deriving from to have persons of another religion in Christian Italy....(!!!)

however from what I know I hope that especially the illegal immigration will be stopped, almost i hope; also i hope that the wonderful Italy remains ITALY completely... good week end, regards from Italy, suanj

[mler]

Suanj,

It's a problem many countries are facing--a big issue in my country as well. I strongly believe that if you want to live in a country, you need to have respect for that country's laws--including its immigration laws. I know that many people come into my country illegally and it creates economic problems. For Italy, I'm sure, this is also the case. Unfortunately, it's a difficult thing too stop, and many politicians don't want to do anything about it.

[suanj]

you right mier! very right! best regards, suanj