Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

[adelfio]

Yes it is
Google map link
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Via+San ... 37.5756738

Marty

[Robin B Mc]

Robin,
Names that are crossed off often are missing a lot of information, such as the name of the person in the US with whom they will be staying or a person they are leaving behind, as well as info such as whether the person had been in the US before. Why would the entries be so incomplete if the person had boarded? Was this info collected only at disembarkation?

It may have been collected on boarding but the immigration officer at the arrival port didn't feel required to record all the details if the individual wasn't disembarking. Their job was to record those disembarking at their port of call. In my personal experience, the details were copied for everyone and then individuals not disembarking were crossed off but ymmv.

I've seen cases where a person was crossed off but then appeared on a different manifest a few months later. There was one cousin who was crossed off 7 manifests over a period of over a year before she finally was on a manifest where she wasn't crossed off. It's hard to reconcile that with your explanation.

People did go back and forth, especially Italians, though 7 times in a year seems like a lot. Hard to say without knowing more about it, especially the time period - you mentioned 1930 in another post and perhaps by that time period things had changed. All of my immigrant ancestors were in America by 1914 so I don't have experience with 1930s+ immigration.

Perhaps in these later decades, sometimes it could mean the person never boarded, but my point still remains that this is not always the case and one can't assume that it is. The passenger lists are generally from the port of arrival, and the crossing off of names means they didn't disembark - whether that's because they died, they went onto another port, or they never boarded to begin with, the immigration officer at the arrival port probably wouldn't have cared. They cared about who was coming into their port, that's all.

[sisINlaw58]

Robin,
I understand it now. Thanks so much. I sincerely appreciate your knowledge and time to help!

[carubia]

The woman who was crossed off 7 times went to America in 1906 to 1907. It would not have physically been possible to travel back-and-forth (with that time period's technology) in the time between some of the manifests. I've seen innumerable cases of people crossed off manifests, and in some of them it was possible from other records to determine that he or she didn't make the trip. I'm not saying that someone being crossed off always had a particular meaning or reason, but it seems that usually the person did not sail.

One can also look at this source for more info:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Manifests/left/

Or this earlier topic here:
http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/i ... logy/16354

A name could be crossed off also because the person was listed on a different page of the manifest. No source mentions a name being crossed off because the person departed the ship somewhere else. I'd be interested to see the manifests in question for Robin's ancestor.

[sisINlaw58]

Yes. That would be interesting. Perhaps it was the wrong person altogether! I still don't know how to find out if Giuseppe Mongiovi went to South America and to what town/city. He was born 1900 so he was young at the time. I don't get it. His mother was so upset with him she cut his picture out of family photographs and never spoke of him! Thanks Carubia! As stated earlier, Buenos Aires Museum of Immigrant Records has nothing on Giuseppe. They suggested I write to the State of Argentina..

[Robin B Mc]

The woman who was crossed off 7 times went to America in 1906 to 1907. It would not have physically been possible to travel back-and-forth (with that time period's technology) in the time between some of the manifests. I've seen innumerable cases of people crossed off manifests, and in some of them it was possible from other records to determine that he or she didn't make the trip. I'm not saying that someone being crossed off always had a particular meaning or reason, but it seems that usually the person did not sail.

One can also look at this source for more info:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Manifests/left/

Or this earlier topic here:
http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/i ... logy/16354

A name could be crossed off also because the person was listed on a different page of the manifest. No source mentions a name being crossed off because the person departed the ship somewhere else. I'd be interested to see the manifests in question for Robin's ancestor.

You are welcome to do so, I posted about this on my blog with the documents in question. If you have an Ancestry.com subscription, you can also view them here:

New York arrival Jan 28, 1914: http://interactive.ancestry.com/7488/NY ... turnRecord

Philadelphia arrival, Jan 30, 1914: http://interactive.ancestry.com/8769/PA ... turnRecord

Note it's the same ship, with the same departure date/port - the arrival port data in on the next pages. As you can see, it's not just one individual we're talking about here - all the people listed on the Philly sheet are found crossed off on the NY sheet. There's only one person crossed off on the NY sheet that isn't on the Philly sheet.

[carubia]

Thank you. This fits with the explanation that people were crossed off because they were listed on a different page of the manifest, but it's unclear when the 2nd page was compiled. I suppose either it was done at the time of departure, when they determined that these passengers were not going to be disembarking in NY, or it could've been done when they reached the earlier port of call, NY, as you suspect.

[carubia]

This topic might also interest you:
http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/i ... ture/26241

3 of my GGF's brothers (or half-brothers) went to Argentina instead of the US,but I haven't been able to trace them either.

[sisINlaw58]

Carubia,
It is frustrating trying to find record of arrival in Argentina, isn't it? I wonder if it is a lost cause. But, I will keep trying.
Thanks

[sisINlaw58]

To find birth record (as well as death record) for woman supposedly of Venetian Royalty, should I still look in the usual nati and morte records? Or, are Royal births kept separately?
Thanks!

[carubia]

In the towns that I've checked, births to nobles (so far I've only seen up to the level of baron) are mixed in with everyone else's.

[sisINlaw58]

Thank you for your help/assistance, Carubia! Grazie!

[sisINlaw58]

Where can I obtain a line by line Italian into English translation for death record? I could only find birth and marriage here.
Thanks!

[adelfio]

Here you go marked death record
CLICK ON IMAGE TO ENLARGE


Marty

[erudita74]

Just to clarify what the document says:
Antonino Alessi was the town secretary delegated to his position by an act of the mayor. The act was read aloud to ALL who intervened, but the declarants did not sign it, as they did not know how to write. The witnesses did sign it though, as Marty already indicated.
Erudita